Eladrin vs. Elves

Nifft · Sep 12, 2007

I like it.

Elves are Angels who have "gone native". Not quite fallen, but neither exalted.

Cheers, -- N

coyote6 · Sep 12, 2007

Banshee16 said:
More importantly, it completely blows up like 30 years of tradition, continuity within the settings, etc.

Have any WotC folk said or hinted that the eladrin/elf thing will be implemented in the Realms or Eberron? That eladrins or elves will replace, for example, replace sun & moon elves, or the like?

It may be that eladrins and elves are core, and then FR says something like, "use eladrin stats for sun elves, with possible changes X, Y, and/or Z; use elf stats for moon elves".

I imagine those hints will come later.

hong · Sep 12, 2007

Banshee16 said:
More importantly, it completely blows up like 30 years of tradition, continuity within the settings, etc.

See, there was this monster called the erinyes....

Banshee16 · Sep 12, 2007

hong said:
See, there was this monster called the erinyes....

......which is now gone, and combined with the Lesser Tanar'ri known as the Succubus, to make one temptress type fiend, which is called a Succubus, but is now a Baatezu....erm...Devil.

Yes, I'm familiar

That doesn't mean I have to like it.

Another example of a "simplification" of an aspect of the game, when I'm really unsure if that simplification is even needed.

Banshee

DandD · Sep 12, 2007

Banshee16 said:
......which is now gone, and combined with the Lesser Tanar'ri known as the Succubus, to make one temptress type fiend, which is called a Succubus, but is now a Baatezu....erm...Devil.

Yes, I'm familiar That doesn't mean I have to like it.

Another example of a "simplification" of an aspect of the game, when I'm really unsure if that simplification is even needed.

Banshee

Seeing as the mythological Erinyes never was a whore-demon to start with, I see no problem in changing this thing and to make it more accurate.

Banshee16 · Sep 12, 2007

DandD said:
Seeing as the mythological Erinyes never was a whore-demon to start with, I see no problem in changing this thing and to make it more accurate.

The mythological Erinyes wasn't a demon or devil at all. Wasn't it a Greek monster?

But the Erinyes of D&D has been a devil, a temptress since what....1979? That's almost 30 years? My Monster Manual 1E had the Erinyes in it, as well as the succubus.

Banshee

RPG_Tweaker · Sep 12, 2007

From what I've gathered, it appears that the sylvan elves (wood/wild) are the hillbilly-hippy cousins of the more lofty and fae-like Eladrin (gray/high elf). Eladrin appear to be more closely related to their otherworldy fae/celestial kin (the original MM Eladrin).

It's my assumption that they are effectively two related, but very distinct races... like the avari and eldar of Tolkien lore.

It seems a bit in style of the backgroud to say that elves are "better" at the ranger/druid classes and the eladrin are "better" at wizard classes, but to assume that they were designed to be the same as the twinky subraces is a bit overly cynical.

They've removed the 3e min/max familiar traditions: wood elves are rangers, high elves are fighters or rogues, gray elves are wizards, etc. So this seems a clear move in a more organic fit for the archetypes elves are generally seen as. The D&D traditionalists have their arcaney eladrin, and the the Tolkien traditionalist have their ranger/druid elves.

Banshee16 · Sep 12, 2007

coyote6 said:
Have any WotC folk said or hinted that the eladrin/elf thing will be implemented in the Realms or Eberron? That eladrins or elves will replace, for example, replace sun & moon elves, or the like?

It may be that eladrins and elves are core, and then FR says something like, "use eladrin stats for sun elves, with possible changes X, Y, and/or Z; use elf stats for moon elves".

I imagine those hints will come later.

They haven't said anything about that yet. All they've done is give us hints. We know that they've given a description of what the 4E elves might be like....ruled by instinct, living in the wild, etc. etc. And they specifically mention that they're also known as wood elves.

That same article mentions their cousins the Eladrin, being more ruled by thought etc.

Someone on the boards, weeks ago, posted the image of the Eladrin wizard, leading to talk about whether they would be a PC race.

This discussion makes a connection between the disparate statements, to ask whether we're on the right track of understanding what they're planning to do.....and express some disapproval (in my opinion) of that planned direction *if* the underlying guess is correct......while we still don't know if it is.

You could be very right....maybe FR will just apply minor cosmetic changes to one or the other race, to make them fit their historical roles/culture. We don't really know enough to say for sure.

But if the underlying assumption is correct (ie. that they're splitting elves into two races), I have to ask why that's better than having one race, with a few subraces with minor differences in ability scores. The last time I checked, whether one's looking at Grey Elves, Wood Elves, High Elves, Moon Elves, Sun Elves, Qualinesti, Silvanesti, etc.......most of them have the same abilities....those of the core elf, with the only differences between them being differences in the ability score modifiers, and cosmetic differences (ie. colour of skin, hair, etc.).

There are really only a few subraces of elves that I can remember in 3E which have actual, significant, differences in their abilities....ie. Drow, Avariel, and Sea Elves. That's about all of them that I know. Two of them are necessary. For Avariels, they need to have wings, or the abillity to cast fly at will, or whatever, if you want a race of flying elves. For Sea Elves, if you want a race that lives under the ocean, well, they need the ability to breath water.

I think the argument against subraces is somewhat overdone.

Banshee

Banshee16 · Sep 12, 2007

RPG_Tweaker said:
They've removed the 3e min/max familiar traditions: wood elves are rangers, high elves are fighters or rogues, gray elves are wizards, etc. So this seems a clear move in a more organic fit for the archetypes elves are generally seen as. The D&D traditionalists have their arcaney eladrin, and the the Tolkien traditionalist have their ranger/druid elves.

And, admittedly, the name "Eladrin" muddies waters enough, with its reference to a race of immortal, celestial beings from Arborea, that we might be getting entirely the wrong idea of what the new Eladrin actually *are*.....simply by virtue of the use of their name.

Banshee