D&D 5E Eldritch blast and hex as class features?

[neobolts]

Read the "quick build" section hoping it would give some insight into the core flavor of the class. It suggests Eldritch Blast, Chill Touch, Ray of Sickness, and Witch Bolt.

My honest first reaction when I read the quick build was "WTF is Witch Bolt?". Turns out it is a concentration sustained lightning ray and is on the Sor and Wiz lists too that I've managed to be utterly unaware of. Hex honestly seems like a better choice due to versatility with the target switching and the disadvantage. Featuring more class-unique spells for the quick build might have been a better choice.

 

[Dausuul]

Blade pact warlocks might not pick up eldritch blast.

As spells it allows for characters of other classes to use feats like magic initiate and spell sniper to get them.

As an ability Hex would not be a a concentration spell, freeing up the warlock to have another buff spell going and wouldn't lose concentration when taking damage.

I am sure there are other reasons they made them spells I am not thinking of.

I'm not really seeing any of those as compelling counter-arguments. It doesn't hurt blade pact warlocks to have a ranged option, and I don't see why other classes particularly need eldritch blast. And there's no reason hex can't include a concentration requirement even if it becomes a class ability.

As a bonus, making EB into a warlock class ability would fix the Sorlock exploit.

 

[doctorhook]

I guess it wouldnt break anything,its just that warlocks spells are practically its class features. Nobody else (by default) gets hex, eldritch blast, armor of agathys or arms of hadar.

I hadn't thought about armor of agathys or arms of hadar or hunger of hadar, but you make an interesting point. I didn't consider them mainly because they haven't been iconic features of the class.

Blade pact warlocks might not pick up eldritch blast.

That's mainly because it's not specifically useful for the character archetype though, right?

As spells it allows for characters of other classes to use feats like magic initiate and spell sniper to get them.

I realize it's a matter of personal taste, but I sorta see that as a feature rather than a bug. Warlocks use different magicks, so they oughtta get different spells, right?

As an ability Hex would not be a a concentration spell, freeing up the warlock to have another buff spell going and wouldn't lose concentration when taking damage.

Now this is one point I definitely hadn't considered. I'm loathe to mess with the delicate balance of concentration in 5E. That said, how bad would it be if hex was a warlock-exclusive class feature that didn't require concentration?

I give em, and also add the pact spells to spells known, not just the warlock spells. The warlock in our group still doesn't outperform the rest of the group. IMO, eldritch blast or pact blade w multiple attacks baked in should have been inherent class features (to prevent them being poached easily)

I find this idea tempting. Then again, I'm also swayed by those posters who point out the danger in making all ___locks too similar.

 

[doctorhook]

How about "because the player wants something else instead"?

There's a monk/warlock in one campaign I'm in, right now, who uses Warlock mainly for Devil's Sight and Mage Hand. He's really not a blast-em kind of guy. If you gave Hex/EB to everyone (and presumably reduced the number of cantrips/spells known by 1 to compensate) he would be sad.

If you're saying to add these things as a free class feature, my only question would be, "Why?" Are you just doing it because you like the Warlock and want it to be more awesome? If so, sure. It's not fundamentally different from me using spell points in my game because I like spellcasters and want them to be awesome, and using feats in my game because I like fighters and want them to be awesome (Sharpshooter, etc.). If everyone in your game starts wanting to be warlocks, then you might have to scale back, but there's no way to know unless you try it. To quote Steve Brust:



This applies to D&D. If your players have the same sense of cool that you do, you can pretty much do whatever you want to the game and it will be fun. You can give fighters 1 attack per 4 levels and it will be cool (if you think it's cool). You can double the amount of healing from Cure Wounds and it will be cool (if it's cool to you). You can give warlocks a couple of extra spells known and it will be cool.

HTH.

I've spent a while considering your post, and you're right: it's entirely within the prerogative of the player whether or not they want their warlock to be able to curse and shoot lasers. I recognize there's a risk of pigeonholing warlocks as a very specific type of character if every warlock has the same directly offensive abilities, and I believe that would be undesirable.

What I'm really wondering about is why this was changed from crucial to optional. Are 5E warlocks viable (effective, "strong enough", competitively useful) without these powers? Would there be any costs to game balance and enjoyability if warlocks got these abilities for free?

(FWIW, I had meant that every warlock would get eldritch blast and hex in addition to their normal choice of spells, the net effect being that these warlocks would have one more cantrip and one more 1st-level spell known than would RAW warlocks.)

 

[doctorhook]

Hex is a good spell, but at levels 1-10 casting it means giving up HALF of your spell slots for every short rest. I can definitely see wanting to focus on more utilitarian abilities. I can't really think of a good reason not to take Eldritch Blast given the damage and other buffs that warlocks can (eventually) stack onto it and given the otherwise very limited number of spell slots. But again, EB does lack some of the special effects other attack cantrips inflict.

This is a really good point, and I appreciate it. How 'bout if hex wasn't a spell and therefore didn't use slots?

As an aside, Princes of the Apocalyse added a handful of new cantrips and 1st-level spells for warlocks to choose from.

I didn't know that in 5e Eldritch Blast is not a default anymore, but in that case I think it's a good move.

Just like Wizards, Sorcerers and Bards choose all their spells, I think it's better if Warlocks also do, and for what matters I also think it would be even better if Clerics, Druids, Rangers and Paladins as well did not automatically know all spells from their list but instead had to pick their wanted ones.

In my opinion, the less specific abilities are fixed, the better, because it gives more width and flexibility to the class, so that 2 members of the same class are less likely to have the same exact abilities. I prefer the bigger picture to be what defines a class, so the spellcasting capabilities and mechanics together with the general themes of the spell list. Similarly, I like that Fighters/Battlemasters choose their maneuvers or Rogues choose their skills and expertise, and I would even prefer if e.g. Druids would choose their wildshape forms (they only choose the flavor right now).

It doesn't cause any problem however, if you grant Eldritch Blast for free, or the other way around if you require all Warlocks to spend a cantrip to learn Eldritch Blast. It's got to do with what is your favourite twist on the overall Warlock concept... my preference is very rarely (if ever) for specific powers to define a class, and more especially for the Warlock I never liked the implied ranged combat capability, but if that's ok for you then go for it.

Thanks for this. I especially like your final paragraph. Serious question though: are warlocks underpowered without EB and hex?

 

[doctorhook]

For an individual table, I also do not believe giving any Warlock player Eldritch Blast and Hex for free as class features rather than spells will cause any undue issues. It just means that player will get an extra cantrip and an extra 1st level spell... and those are not really significant advantages. If a normal spellcaster can get an extra cantrip just by taking High Elf, your Warlock player getting an extra one will not cause any real problems.

In truth, I have also considered making Hex *and* Hunter's Mark either class features or at the very least spells that do not require concentration. Mainly because I think having both require it puts the melee-based Blade pact Warlock and two-weapon fighting Ranger at a significant disadvantage, because they will be making a disproportional number of concentration checks due to receiving damage than their ranged attack brethren tend to do.

Thanks for looking at it from a mechanical perspective. I had considered including hunter's mark in this discussion, but chose not to just because it's a bit too far off topic. That said, I definitely think of it the same way I had about hex.

I'm not really seeing any of those as compelling counter-arguments. It doesn't hurt blade pact warlocks to have a ranged option, and I don't see why other classes particularly need eldritch blast. And there's no reason hex can't include a concentration requirement even if it becomes a class ability.

As a bonus, making EB into a warlock class ability would fix the Sorlock exploit.

How bad would it be if hex didn't require concentration?

Also, I'm just reading up on the Sorlock now. Whoa, does that ever make warlocks seem broken...

 

[Dausuul]

How bad would it be if hex didn't require concentration?

Well, it wouldn't be the end of the world, but it would certainly be a big power-up for warlocks. Right now, there are substantial tradeoffs involved in casting hex. You're giving up one of your 2-3 spell slots; yes, you can get them back with a short rest, but short rests are non-trivial time investments in 5E. In addition, you're dedicating your concentration "slot," and anything that breaks your concentration means you lose the spell.

If hex were a class ability that didn't require concentration, those tradeoffs would disappear and casting it every combat would be a no-brainer. Assuming you took the Agonizing Blast invocation, hex boosts your EB damage by 30-35%. That's a fairly big deal.

My suggestion: Make eldritch blast into a class ability and grant hex as a bonus spell (i.e., you add it to your list of spells known for free).

 

[famousringo]

Making them spells instead of class features isn't about the warlock, it's about everybody else.

If it's a class feature, the only way to get Eldritch Blast is to grab a level or two of warlock. But because it's a spell, other classes can get Eldritch Blast with a feat, and the Bard can grab Hex as one of his spells from other class lists.

It's a way for other classes to get a little bit warlock without being quite so warlock as to actually make a pact.

 

[Paraxis]

What would Eldritch Blast be if it wasn't a spell? Right now there are weapon attacks and spells, doing this would create a whole new category.

As far as Hex goes, right now it has limitations on it most notably duration and concentration. A warlock is hard pressed to keep the spell going all the time, as every casting uses up a precious spell slot, and they have to make concentration checks whenever they take damage. At lower levels the duration is limiting as you might go hours between short rests and even if you maintain concentration you need to spend multiple spell slots to maintain it.

The warlock is already a powerful class and doesn't need any fixes to increase capabilities, well the bladelock does but that is another topic.

Having few options and limited choices is part of being a warlock.

 

[aramis erak]

Let's talk hypothetically: why shouldn't every warlock automatically get eldritch blast and hex? (Those are a cantrip and a 1st-level spell respectively, and both unique to the warlock spell list.) Eldritch blast was the defining feature of the 3.5E warlock, and a default class feature for all warlocks in 4E. Hex comes from one of the class features of the 3.5E hexblade ("hexblade's curse"), which the warlock killed and looted for 4E; the 4E warlock had "warlock's curse" as its central class feature. My point is that eldritch blasts and hexes/curses were class features (rather than optional spells) right up until 5E. Why the change? And should other classes be able to learn these powers as spells?

I'm considering giving both of these for free to one of my players who's creating a 1st-level warlock. I can't think of a reason why I shouldn't. Shouldn't I?

I've yet to see a 5E warlock played without those two. 7 for 7. Essentially, it's an undocumented feature of them. And any warlock who lacks Eldritch Bolt also loses out on class advancement features linked to it.