D&D 5E Elemental Evil companion spells underwhelming?

[TwoSix]

Ok, maybe Immolation IS just plain weak - comparing to Disintegrate at just one level higher, which provides both instakill, better utility, and more than double the damage. Not even the potentially disruptive DoT effect of Immolation is remotely effective, given that a victim needs to fail TWO saves before taking repeat damage. I guess 5th level spell slots still fall into the "not quite so strictly limited" range, but still...

Well, you have to be cautious comparing 5th and 6th level spells, that break is supposed to represent a fairly big gap in a spell's capabilities. Not saying that Immolation is strong, just it's better to compare to other 5th level spells.

 

[bganon]

Horrid Wilting is an inferior spell. If it were 12d8 or had an additional effect like sunburst, it would be on par.

Incendiary Cloud lasts 10 rounds. It does the same in one round that a spell that lasts 10 rounds does. Delayed Blast Fireball with 1 round charge does 13d6 for up to 78 points and an average 45 as a 7th level spell with more potential damage if you can wait longer. Horrid Wilting does 10d8 for an average of 45 damage. It is a cube, so it doesn't hit as wide an area. It's a 7th level spell disguised as an 8th level spell.

I'd be fine with 12d8 as well. It's not really that much more damage. Incendiary Cloud lasts 10 rounds but how often does that happen? How often do creatures even get hit more than once? I honestly don't know, but I doubt it's really that much more common than running into plant creatures or water elementals. Or happening to have a necromancer in the party.

Just to give some perspective, the standard deviation per casting on 10d8 damage (5.4) is more than half as much as the average damage increase going to 12d8 (9). Statistically, you'd need to cast the spell a few times to be confident there's even a damage increase. One or two die out of ten can seem like a lot on paper, but random rolls are random rolls.

 

[Staffan]

In 3e, horrid wilting had a major advantage in that it technically wasn't an area attack - it was a targeted spell with a discretionary number of targets, no two who could be more than 60 ft apart. In other words: an area spell without friendly fire. That sounds like something that would make it worthy of being 8th level.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Many of the spells seem to be a tad bit weaker overall than the PHB spells, but situationally better. This actually makes a lot of sense, and is what I'd like to see them keep doing if that is the goal.

The thought is that the reason certain spells are so common (ie, PHB) in the world is that they are, in general, simply the best spells overall. Thousands of other spells exist in the world but they are more specialized in their usage. If those other spells were better, they would be the ones that everyone knew. Other spells should be spells that are going to be better for the right caster in the right situation, but (slightly) inferior in general.

Otherwise you end up with the problem where as soon as they publish supplements the PHB stuff gets ignored in favor of the better stuff.

Of course, there are some spells in this supplement that are just real stinkers (ie, horrid wilting), and that's unfortunate.

 

[suden]

I think some of these spells make good flavorful options, especially for DM run npcs.

The necromancer with undead troops has already been mentioned, that would make a good offensive npc spell.

Flame Arrows could be great in certain situations. Tower defenders can shoot a lot of arrows in a round. So you have an npc (or pc for that matter) ranger in a keep tower with a group of four low level defenders. He can pass around the quiver and have them all grab a couple arrows, while he keeps 4 for himself, that's a half dozen flaming arrows per round. Or a wizard hands out all 12, fueling the defenders for three rounds, and casts other spells in between. A fireball might technically do more damage, but if the tower or keep is being besieged by hordes of smaller troops, like goblins or bandits, the fireball might be overkill, but an extra d6 might make a real difference to a lower level defender doing d8+2.

 

[JackOfAllTirades]

I don't really don't want to see any weird, overpowered, badly-designed spells popping up in my games just because a new book came out. We went down that awful road in 3E, and before that in 2E. If I never hear the phrase "Nahal's Reckless Dweomer" again, it'll be too soon. No thanks.

Kudos to WOTC for keeping the spell list in this book short and sensible.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Horrid Wilting targets Con saves. That makes it somewhat rare for a blaster spell. Probably not a bonus because Con saves tend to be pretty high, but Evasion and Shield Master don't do anything, for example. It's also necrotic damage, which makes it good against demons, devils, angels, elementals, etc. Basically anything that isn't undead... which, along with constructs, are already explicitly immune to the spell.

Shatter is a better damaging spell than Snowball Swarm, but it's also significantly louder and more destructive. Even Fireball only damages flammable objects. While Snowball Swarm might alert the next room, Shatter stands a good chance of alerting the whole dungeon, if not the next dungeon over, too.

I'm happy to see the spells listed with more information than just the name, but I'd still prefer 3e style short descriptions and something I've always thought should be there: page numbers.

I'm very happy to see several spells missing from the PHB which, while not iconic, were perhaps one step removed from being iconic.

Overall, I'm mostly disappointed that nearly every spell in the companion is from the Conjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation schools. Most spells were already from those schools, and this didn't correct that. I would've liked to see more Abjuration, Divination, Enchantment, and Illusion spells. Others are probably disappointed by the lack of Necromancy spells, but I've never cared for that school; the effects tend to be too narrow, with some exceptions (Eyebite). As it is, though, there are still no 5th level Necromancy spells for Wizard, which seems kind of weird.

 

[Scorpio616]

Horrid Wilting targets Con saves. That makes it somewhat rare for a blaster spell. Probably not a bonus because Con saves tend to be pretty high, but Evasion and Shield Master don't do anything, for example. It's also necrotic damage, which makes it good against demons, devils, angels, elementals, etc. Basically anything that isn't undead... which, along with constructs, are already explicitly immune to the spell.

Good to see some folks understand it.

Shatter is a better damaging spell than Snowball Swarm, but it's also significantly louder and more destructive. Even Fireball only damages flammable objects. While Snowball Swarm might alert the next room, Shatter stands a good chance of alerting the whole dungeon, if not the next dungeon over, too.

Very, very true. Not to mention Shatter and Thunder Wave are going to be MUCH rougher on the surrounding stonework.

I'm happy to see the spells listed with more information than just the name, but I'd still prefer 3e style short descriptions and something I've always thought should be there: page numbers.

I never want to see those short descriptions again. Not only did wotc prove they were unable to edit or even properly Errata those in 3Era, they were a TERRIBLE trap for those inexperienced to the game. Far too many times did I see people try to choose and even CAST spells solely based on the information from the short description.

 

[famousringo]

Shatter is a better damaging spell than Snowball Swarm, but it's also significantly louder and more destructive. Even Fireball only damages flammable objects. While Snowball Swarm might alert the next room, Shatter stands a good chance of alerting the whole dungeon, if not the next dungeon over, too.


Overall, I'm mostly disappointed that nearly every spell in the companion is from the Conjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation schools. Most spells were already from those schools, and this didn't correct that. I would've liked to see more Abjuration, Divination, Enchantment, and Illusion spells. Others are probably disappointed by the lack of Necromancy spells, but I've never cared for that school; the effects tend to be too narrow, with some exceptions (Eyebite). As it is, though, there are still no 5th level Necromancy spells for Wizard, which seems kind of weird.

But Snilloc's isn't just inferior to Shatter, it's inferior to Ice Knife cast with a level 2 slot. Unless you really, really need that 30 range. It's hard to imagine anybody spending a precious known spell to take it.

But hey, they can't all be golden.

As for the second point, well, it's Elemental Evil. Divinations were never really going to be on the menu. Horrid Wilting only got in due to a vague association with water.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

But Snilloc's isn't just inferior to Shatter, it's inferior to Ice Knife cast with a level 2 slot. Unless you really, really need that 30 range. It's hard to imagine anybody spending a precious known spell to take it.

Not remotely. Ice Knife deals ZERO AoE damage on a successful save.