Eliminating stat items

[ruleslawyer]

Quick question- it seems quite clear in your original post that characters get these points _every_ level. Meaning that from level 1-20 you would gain 210 points (1 + 2 + 3 ... + 19 + 20 = 210). If that is so, this means that a 20th level character will be like a 235 point character. A 20 costs 12 pts beyond an 18, or 28 pts if I am not mistaken. This means that to have all 20's would take 168 points, less than 235.

I might go further than some other posters here and suggest that a character with all 20s will be relatively non-viable at 20th level, unless that character is in a class that's already multiple ability dependent and gets bonuses to a combat stat (AB, AC) from multiple ability scores (e.g., the monk or paladin). A wizard with all 20s is going to be practically useless at 20th level; a +5 ability-based bonus to save DCs means that your odds of affecting opponents compared to a caster in a standard D&D game are abysmally low. So what if your Con and Dex are slightly better (and it WILL be "slightly," since most wizards pick up a Con and Dex boost item somewhere along the way as well)?

I might also mention that, as an alternative to a point-based system, one could use the stat-boosting progression for ascetic characters in the BoED. Just a thought.

 

[Grog]

I think this house rule needs some balancing. Yes, you've gotten rid of all magic items that boost stats - but you've also given players a free way to increase their ability scores (free, meaning they only have to gain a level). So basically, they've freed up all the money they would otherwise be spending on magic items. Also, not having to take up slots for stat-boosting magic items is a HUGE advantage. And guess what, now they've got plenty of money to fill those empty slots. This system would work if you slashed character wealth or made magic items in general much rarer. But as is, I think you're going to see a dramatic increase in power level.

I'm not so sure about that. Sure, PC weapons and armor might be a plus or two higher than they normally would, PC wizards might have a few more wands/staffs, etc., but as far as a dramatic increase? I just don't see it. If you figure that most 20th level characters will have 3 +6 stat items, that only comes to 108,000 gp - about 15% of the wealth level of a PC at that level.

Sure, you might need to reduce the amount of treasure given somewhat - but then, it might work just fine with existing wealth levels.

Besides, a couple of people in this thread have said that they'd rather have more interesting magic items in place of their stat-buffing ones; if you reduce the wealth levels too much, they won't be able to afford them anyway.

 

[Thresher]

Just quickly before I bugger off into a meeting, did some quick calcs on my epic character (a level 32) and it seems to have been pretty close to what it is with her gear + stat book abuse. Thats for an 'average' to 'well equipped' epic character that has craft Misc Items. Lost a bit to save DC's gained a few in other areas but I liked how it turned out. Probably have to keep the stat-books in game, otherwise us high levels get eaten pretty quick without them and end up slightly below par.

cheers, seems to work and scale nicely with the system though.
Well done.

 

[Hygric]

Actually, I don't see a problem with leaving the books in, since (at least in non-epic games) they're much less pervasive than the stat enchancement items are. They might need to have their cost increased a bit, though, since PCs will have more money to spend if they don't have stat items to buy (or the amount of treasure given could be reduced somewhat).

Of course, I haven't given any thought to continuing this system into epic levels. It might break down at the higher levels... Although the scaling cost of higher stats might mean it would still work. I don't know.

Your right, the stat boost books seem to still work okay under this system. So I suppose that it boils down to eliminating anything that gives an enhancement bonus to stats.

As for epic, it seems to work okay (just ran some numbers for the PC's in my epic game (32nd level), including thresher's character) and they end up mostly the same.

And no more ever pervasive stat-buff spells or items... *shivers* ah heaven!

 

[AeroDm]

How does it work at lower levels? IIRC, character wealth at 5th level is 9800 and because no one item should be more than 1/2 your wealth, this is the first time you should have a stat raising item (4k for a +2 item).

By this time you have 15 pts of stat-leveling which works perfectly if you player starts with an 18, bumps it to 19 at 4th, and then gets the +2 stat item to it as well.

However, if your players don't favor one stat it really breaks down. If someone boosts their dex extremely high to gain AC it works, but if someone boosts dex, wis, and int the system fails. Basically if characters can diversify themselves they'll end up significantly better off because your stats scale is price so sharply, which must be done in order to retain balance.

I like the idea, but it is just too... customizable. The system works if people are pidgeon-holed into boosting one stat, but with _any_ measure of foresight it will be broken to no end. I'd like to try it at 1/2 character level without the scale increase you added.

 

[Hygric]

/Thresher hijack's Hygric's PC

Im thinking it will make lower level characters a bit tougher than normal, what I would suggest is using a lower point buy character creation from the get-go and for existing characters to have some slightly more difficult CR's.

As for the magic items not costing 1/2 your wealth level I dont remember that from anywhere.

 

[Altalazar]

An excellent idea - I may have to steal it. I don't know if I'll use those exact numbers, though. I agree that all sorts of stat-boosting items does seem kind of cheesy. I'd almost rather not have either. Except for things that are very special - my favorite being the "beetle" items.

These are little stone beetles that when you pick them up, they burrow their way into the base of your spine. They do damage, and you have to make a save then or you may take permanent damage. Not a good idea to roll a '1' on that save... but then once there, it grants an abilitiy or a stat increase.

You can only have one - if you activate another one, it burrows in and pushes out the one that is there (with more saves required...) So it is a way to get a stat boost, but there are consequences and it is not something you replace lightly.

 

[Vaxalon]

I don't mind stat-boosts.

It seems like one of the first things that magic would do.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I've done the math on this, and posted at length on the Wizards' boards.

If you start with a 25 point buy and give (at every level) points equal to 1/3 character level, rounded up, you'd have a 102 point buy character at 20th level. Using the normal weight rules-- following the pattern in the DMG for weight value-- you end up with characters whose stats are fairly normal for their level, if you had included the stat-boosting items.

Standard array (25 point buy): 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
102 points in same proportion: 21, 20, 19, 18, 15, 13

Even distribution (25 points): 13, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12
Even distribution (102 points): 19, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18

One high score (25 points): 18, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8 (one point left over)
One high score (102 points): 30, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8

Three good, three bad (25 points): 14, 14, 14, 11, 10, 10
Three good, three bad (102 points): 20, 20, 20, 16, 16, 16

Like all weighted point-buy systems, this one tilts slightly in favor of classes with multiple ability dependencies, but single ability score characters can still boost their abilities to impressive levels. I would reccomend only allowing characters to spend points at level raise, but allowing them to save points for more than one level, as well.

I'm going to start using this in my campaigns.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I've done the math on this, and posted at length on the Wizards' boards.

Do you have a link?

I dislike the way this method tends to cause stat arrays to flatten. It becomes more cost effective to raise your low scores than to invest in the diminishing returns of a high score. In your "one high score" example, a character could have 28, 14, 14, 14, 14, 10 instead of 30, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8.

Here's a suggestion:

After the character's initial point buy is determined reduce the high scores but add in an unnamed bonus so their actual value is unchanged. The high scores will thus be cheaper to increase, since it is their base value (before bonuses) that determines how much an increase costs. For the low scores do the opposite: raise the score but include an unnamed penalty.

It's kind of like racial modifiers. An elf can spend 10 points to get a 16 dex, which is increased to 18 because of the racial bonus. It still costs only 3 points to increase it by one point, since it is still a 16 for the purpose of point buy.

I suggest that the player could choose among the following options for the size of the adjustment after the initial point buy has taken place:

1. No adjustment
2. An adjustment of +1 to one, two or three scores, and -1 to the same number of other scores.
3. An adustment of +2 to one or two scores, and -2 to twice the number of other scores.
4. And adjustment of +5 to one score, and -5 to the other scores.

Remember the final value of ability scores is unchanged, since the change in an ability score is offset by an equal bonus or penalty.

So a "one-high score" character might choose option 4. The (18, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8) array will be changed into (13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 13) for the purpose of point buy increases. The 13 will have a +5 bonus, so it will still work as an 18 for every other purpose, and the other abilities will all have a penalty of -5. (option 4 is like a +5 racial bonus to one stat, and a -5 racial penalty to every other stat).