Eliminating stat items

[Grog]

Quick question- it seems quite clear in your original post that characters get these points _every_ level. Meaning that from level 1-20 you would gain 210 points (1 + 2 + 3 ... + 19 + 20 = 210). If that is so, this means that a 20th level character will be like a 235 point character. A 20 costs 12 pts beyond an 18, or 28 pts if I am not mistaken. This means that to have all 20's would take 168 points, less than 235.

I really like the concept, but that is crazy (assuming I didn't misunderstand).

No, you have it right. And I don't think a 20th level character having 20s in every stat is all that crazy. Remember that all stats are not created equal. For many of the classes out there, half the stats or so have very little value beyond RP. What benefit would a 20 Charisma really give to a fighter beyond increasing a couple of skills (which would already be quite high at 20th level)? You don't typically see high-level fighters running out to buy +6 Charisma items under the current system. A wizard with a 20 Strength will still be a crappy fighter.

Now, as I said, this system does benefit the classes that rely on several stats a bit more than the others. But I don't really think that's a huge problem. If the party paladin wants to boost his Charisma and his Wisdom, his Strength and Constitution will end out slightly lower than the party fighter's. But it's his choice.

Perhaps only granting these bonuses at levels where you would normally gain ability increases would be more appropriate. This way you find yourself with 60 additional points, fleshing you out at a nice 85 point character, which is still excessively high imo.

I don't think it's that high at all if there aren't any stat increasing items or animal buff spells in the game. Consider that a single +6 stat item could be worth as much as 90 points under this system (raising a stat from 22 to 28 costs 90 points, under the current system you can raise a stat to 22 with level points, then boost it to 28 with a +6 item). Sure, the party fighter could end up with a 30 Strength, but that's only 2 points higher than the 28 he can get currently, and he'd have to sacrifice almost all of his other stats to get it.

 

[Norfleet]

A couple of other things I forgot to mention - stats can still only be 18 maximum at character creation (excluding racial bonuses), and while the points can be saved, they can only be spent on a level-up. This avoids situations like PCs raising their Con just as a killing blow lands, etc.

I dunno, sounds pretty realistic to me. There's nothing quite like surviving something that should have killed you to make you realize that you've become tougher.

 

[Thresher]

Its not a bad idea this one, Im annoyed at having to heavily rely on magic items at higher levels but Im not stupid enough either to ignore the fact that items that'll raise a DC or BAB by +1, 2 or 3 in hp's per level, not mention upping saves and skills to some degree are extreamly necessary for suvival.
Heck for most casters its a no brainer to choose the +Con over a +caster stat just so they can live a few rounds in a meat grinder.

Then you hit epic levels...
(oh boy, then the wheels fall off the wagon!!!)

The best thing about this type of thing is the simplicity of it and dumping items out of the game, as a whole I wouldnt expect it to be perfect but if a GM is on the ball they might be able to make opponents either do less damage, slightly worse AC or saves etc, and see how it pans out.

 

[Hygric]

*yoink*



I like this a lot. I would assume that the book +5 would also cease to exist? It has gotten to the point in my epic game where the PC's refer to a set of all 6 stat books as the "encyclopedia statistica". Not a good situation to be in...

 

[Storminator]

Quick question- it seems quite clear in your original post that characters get these points _every_ level. Meaning that from level 1-20 you would gain 210 points (1 + 2 + 3 ... + 19 + 20 = 210). If that is so, this means that a 20th level character will be like a 235 point character. A 20 costs 12 pts beyond an 18, or 28 pts if I am not mistaken. This means that to have all 20's would take 168 points, less than 235.

I really like the concept, but that is crazy (assuming I didn't misunderstand). Perhaps only granting these bonuses at levels where you would normally gain ability increases would be more appropriate. This way you find yourself with 60 additional points, fleshing you out at a nice 85 point character, which is still excessively high imo.

It's not so crazy. Using standard wealth and a 32 point buy character I recently made a 24th level PC. Given 5 stat tomes and 5 +6 items, his stats are:

S24 D27 C25 I27 W8 Ch27

Under Grog's system he'd be a 509 point character. If I had bumped up the WIS as well, he'd be a 531 point character. So he'd be significantly less powerful than he is. And I have fairly normal stats for my party. I have more high stats than any other PC, but my highest stat is lower than every other PC.

PS

 

[Urbannen]

I think the assumption this system makes is that all people in the world have the natural ability to become superhuman. "In real life", anyone with a score of 18 is rare, and scores of 16 and 17 are exceptional.

If the campaign is low magic, I don't think it makes sense. If the campaign is Xena, the Warrior Princess, then it makes sense. If the campaign is Final Fantasy XXVII: For Immortality, then it also makes sense.

 

[Grog]

I like this a lot. I would assume that the book +5 would also cease to exist? It has gotten to the point in my epic game where the PC's refer to a set of all 6 stat books as the "encyclopedia statistica". Not a good situation to be in...

Actually, I don't see a problem with leaving the books in, since (at least in non-epic games) they're much less pervasive than the stat enchancement items are. They might need to have their cost increased a bit, though, since PCs will have more money to spend if they don't have stat items to buy (or the amount of treasure given could be reduced somewhat).

Of course, I haven't given any thought to continuing this system into epic levels. It might break down at the higher levels... Although the scaling cost of higher stats might mean it would still work. I don't know.

 

[Grog]

I think the assumption this system makes is that all people in the world have the natural ability to become superhuman. "In real life", anyone with a score of 18 is rare, and scores of 16 and 17 are exceptional.

Well, the system is an abstract. But D&D is full of abstracts already, hit points being one of the major ones.

If the campaign is low magic, I don't think it makes sense.

I don't know. Have you ever read David Gemmel? He writes what could be considered low-magic fantasy, yet his heroes often have what could be considered superhuman health and/or speed.

 

[Wolffenjugend]

Balance?

I think this house rule needs some balancing. Yes, you've gotten rid of all magic items that boost stats - but you've also given players a free way to increase their ability scores (free, meaning they only have to gain a level). So basically, they've freed up all the money they would otherwise be spending on magic items. Also, not having to take up slots for stat-boosting magic items is a HUGE advantage. And guess what, now they've got plenty of money to fill those empty slots. This system would work if you slashed character wealth or made magic items in general much rarer. But as is, I think you're going to see a dramatic increase in power level.

 

[Urbannen]

Well, the system is an abstract. But D&D is full of abstracts already, hit points being one of the major ones.

True, but ability scores have some concrete concepts attached to them. Strength gives you a concrete lifting ability. The average ability score for humans is concretely defined as being 10 to 11, while the maximum ability score a human can begin adulthood with is concretely 18.

When you see stat scores in the mid to high 20's, that equates into superhero-like abilities. The reason it feels abstract is because the D&D game cannot enforce RP consequences for having a 26 Strength, Intelligence, or Charisma.

It's an assumption of many campaigns that PCs will attain these abilities somehow. PCs live in a segment of society where it's not unusual to have a demi-godlike ability score or scores, kind of like in the real world some people live in a segment of society where it's not unusual to own several plots of land the size of Rhode Island. High level PCs live in a milieu in which all their peers have superhuman abilities, thus they don't see it as being strange.

I don't know. Have you ever read David Gemmel? He writes what could be considered low-magic fantasy, yet his heroes often have what could be considered superhuman health and/or speed.

You're right, low-magic is not the correct way to talk about it. Maybe "Grim 'N Gritty" vs. "Xena"?