[EN World Book Club] Dragondoom Discussion [September Selection]

I liked Dragondoom. It was hard to get into the story due to it jumping around in time, but I'm also still getting used to working 3rd shift at my new job, so getting into anything has been tough. I don't know if I'd call the roles of Dwarves, woman, etc "stereotypical" as much as being the "traditional" way the different people & genders are seen in alot of books like this. That's not to say I don't like things that break the mold, but it doesn't bug me. I enjoyed the development of Thork and Elyn's relationship too. I'm a big fan of those awkward moments & stages of a relationship... they just touch me for some reason (maybe it's the girl in me trying to break out past the tomboy gamer ;) ). I was really sad at the ending though... actually, I almost cried (of course, I also cried at the end of the movies AI and The Whole Wide World, all within a couple of days of each other... just in a sappy mood I guess). I was hoping it would end happy (well, as happy as the aftermath of a war with 1000s of casualties plus the death of the brother on one side and a father & son on the other can be). It was very poignant, but I would've liked Thork & Elyn together more than how it did end. It would have made a bigger impact on Dwarf/Men relations than just having Thork stand by his promise. And, since I haven't read any of McKiernan's other stuff, I have to wonder what Thork's mother was thinking to herself about Men & Dwarves and if it's addressed in any of his other books.
 

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jester47 said:
One thing I might try with this book is to read the events of the different time frames together. I do this with Catherine Kerr books because I hate her pseudo celtic flashbacks. I skip the flashbacks and the stories make great reads for me.
I'm not sold on that idea. Seems to me that an author writes a book they way he wants you to read it. They want you to get something out of the technique; the story should evolve around the flashbacks. Sometimes this jumping around works. In this case it didn't. I thought it worked well in Cormyr, A Novel (just one that I happened to read recently and it sticks out in my mind).

One of the interesting things is that I find McKiernan's influence from Tolkien sort of refreshing. Rather than saying, "Hey! This guy is ripping off Tolkien!" I find myself thinking of the very veiled references as tributes to the Don. In fact I am pleased that McKiernan does this because it seems to me that so many writers are afraid of using the "tolkienesque" ideas of fantasy in thier own works in an effort to avoid being called unoriginal. So, I kind of see him as sort of ballsy.
The Tolkienesque quality of the story doesn't bother me. This is a "traditional" fantasy story (whatever that means), and as such, it's hard to come up with too much that is new. Otherwise, we wouldn't be considering it a "traditional" fantasy piece.

Think about it. If you start introducing a whole bunch of new races and such, people are going to compare them to known archetypes. "Stout, short beings? Oh, they're dwarves. How come they don't have beards and live inside mountains?"

In my mind, there are three main categories of fantasy. 1) Tolkienesque fantasy, which draws from a number of Euro/Anglo myth structures; 2) what I'll call Arthurian fantasy, which is essentially a human, earth-like world infused with magic; and 3) a kind of a catch-all "other" category, which would include fey fantasy, etc (not the best description, but I'm at work and have limited time :) ).

So the fact that someone crafts a story in the Tolkienesque style or Arthurian style isn't something, IMO, that is bad. As long as the story is compelling and there is some thought provocation that takes place. Not to harp on it, but I didn't find Dragondoom
 

Well, I was going to ask if McKiernan had improved (I fought my way through the first book of the Iron Tower trilogy, then figured I might as well just read Fellowship of the Ring instead), but based on the comments above, I guess I don't have to.
 

Great to hear what everyone else thinks about the book.

Here is something that struck me as very odd: the glossary contains major spoilers. Apparently, the glossary is intended to be used as a reference for what happened in the book. Maybe if you were reading other novels in the setting and could not remember some detail from Dragondoom, you could just grab it off the shelf and check the glossary.

I have never seen this done before. Any sort of glossary or reference appendix usually is intended as a reference while your are reading the book, and therefore contains no spoilers. These sorts of things are usually only current to just before the novel begins.

George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series is an example of this method. The appendix is always useful, as there are so many characters to keep track of, but the appendix never tells what happens to a character in the book you are holding.

Luckily, I noticed this early on, when I checked some minor character in the glossary and found out he was going to die (don't recall who, but it was not a major character). If you have your copy handy, check the entries for Thork and Elyn. Their entries tell even of the events covered in the final pages of the novel.

Does anyone else find this odd? Have you seen this done elsewhere? Does McKiernan always do this?
 

JoeBlank said:
Here is something that struck me as very odd: the glossary contains major spoilers.
I've seen glossaries in Jordan's WoT series, but can't honestly remember if it contained spolier info for that book. I saw the glossary early on, and I went looking to see if there was any background info on Kalagath. Guess what I saw?
 

I noticed the spoilers in the glossary/appendix early on in my reading too. I don't remember what the character's name was, but he was a sailor on one of the ships taking Elgo's party to Blackstone. I wasn't sure if it was a proper name or some other noun and I looked it up. The entry was something akin to "Sailor on the dragonships. Died in the Maelstrom during Elgo's return home." I stopped reading the glossary at that point.

If I had to guess, it seems like the glossary was an afterthought. Almost like the editor read it an said "You really need a roster and a playbook in here. Put something together.", which McKiernan did based on his knowledge, not based on the status of Mithgar at the beginning of the story.

Jordan's Wheel of Time (which needs a companion book more than a glossary) doesn't give anything away. The info is generally current before the start of the book that the glossary appears in.
 

Sam said:
I noticed the spoilers in the glossary/appendix early on in my reading too. I don't remember what the character's name was, but he was a sailor on one of the ships taking Elgo's party to Blackstone. I wasn't sure if it was a proper name or some other noun and I looked it up. The entry was something akin to "Sailor on the dragonships. Died in the Maelstrom during Elgo's return home." I stopped reading the glossary at that point.
Sam, I think we were looking up the same guy. Funny.

Glad I noticed it early enough to not use the glossary. There were some decent surprises in this book. I was mildly shocked when Elgo died. Knowing that either Elyn or Thork was destined to die, I was surprised by the outcome, and was glad that was not spoiled for me.

I am still being a little vague about the final events, as some have indicated they have not finished the book yet. Is anyone participating in the discussion but hoping to avoid spoilers?
 

Not to worry for me. However, there were a few voices that seemed to intend to finish. Personally, I couldn't wait to get into Tigana. Thank the Lord of Emperors for Guy Gavriel Kay!
 

drnuncheon said:
Well, I was going to ask if McKiernan had improved (I fought my way through the first book of the Iron Tower trilogy, then figured I might as well just read Fellowship of the Ring instead), but based on the comments above, I guess I don't have to.

Give the three stories in Tales of Mithgar and the novel Eye of the Hunter a shot. They are sufficiantly different and not so derivative. Also, they are really easy to get into.

Aaron.
 

Sam said:
I noticed the spoilers in the glossary/appendix early on in my reading too. I don't remember what the character's name was, but he was a sailor on one of the ships taking Elgo's party to Blackstone. I wasn't sure if it was a proper name or some other noun and I looked it up. The entry was something akin to "Sailor on the dragonships. Died in the Maelstrom during Elgo's return home." I stopped reading the glossary at that point.
I think I was looking up the same person. I still used the glossary to some degree, for the characters I couldn't remember the names of, but I tried not to read too much of it, or about major characters.
If I had to guess, it seems like the glossary was an afterthought. Almost like the editor read it an said "You really need a roster and a playbook in here. Put something together.", which McKiernan did based on his knowledge, not based on the status of Mithgar at the beginning of the story.
I think you're right on the money.

What he *should* have done, in a case like this, was something like Steven Brust's The Phoenix Guards, Five Hundred Years After, Paths of the Dead, and Lord of Castle Black. He lists a Cast of Characters at the beginning of the book, with very loose descriptions, such as:

OF LORD ADRON'S COMPANY
Adron e'Keiron--Dragon Heir
Aliera e'Kieron--Adron's daughter
Molric e'Drien--Adron's chainman
Durtri--a sentry
Geb--a soldier

etc.

Very nice, IMO, without being a spoiler. Exactly what Dragondoom needed instead of that spoiler-laden glossary.

Jordan's Wheel of Time (which needs a companion book more than a glossary) doesn't give anything away. The info is generally current before the start of the book that the glossary appears in.
That makes sense, especially in long things like that. Raymond Feist's Riftwar books needs one of those, too.
 

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