[EN World Book Club] Dragondoom Discussion [September Selection]

I haven't finished the book either. I also found it difficult to get into, I think that the flashbacks actually attributed to this as well as his style. I'm enjoying it more as I plod through the book and I want to finish it though at the rate I'm going I might not get to Tigana even if it is 6 weeks till the discussion starts. It seems I may not have the time with RL, work, gaming, etc. :( I am enjoying reading everyone's take on the book so I'll follow the other discussion wether I read the next book or not.
 

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I hope this group doesn't mind, but I started reading this thread because of the book being discussed. I read Dragondoom several years ago. It was the second McKiernan book I read, and I have become a big fan of his Mithgar novels. But I will admit Dragondoom is not one of his better works. If you don't mind, I thought I would give the group a little background on McKiernan and his Mithgar novels.

I didn't have a problem with Dragondoom jumping forward and backward in time, because the first McKiernan novel I read, The Eye of the Hunter, did the same thing. And was a lot more successful in its use of that technique. That's because Dragondoom was written earlier, when McKiernan was still learning to be a fiction writer.

I don't remember right off hand what McKiernan did before he became a fiction writer -- some technical job in the defense industry -- but he turned to writing when he was laid up at home for an extended time after a severe accident. He read Tolkien's work, then decided to write a "sequel," if you can imagine that. After finishing it, he shopped it around to various publishers. This is when he learned about copyright laws and such, and that you just couldn't write a book set in another author's world, and use characters and events from that world, without permission.

So in order to get the book published, he changed the names and places, etc., to it wouldn't violate any copyrights. This was the Iron Call, and like Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, was split into three volumes by the publisher because of the size.

His next book was the Silver Call, then Dragondoom. Having read Eye of the Hunter first, when I was reading Dragondoom I saw how McKiernan was attempting to grow as a writer in Dragondoom, and could appreciate it since I knew his writing would improve later.

As far as the Mithgar novels as a whole, McKiernan's "hook" if you will for the stories is that he found ancient, original scrolls or texts that were written by an unknown author from Mithgar, and he merely translated them for a modern audience. Sort of like what Ed Greenwood used to do with his Elminster articles in Dragon Magazine -- pretending Elminster really did exist in another dimension, and would visit Ed to dictate information about the Forgotten Realms in exchange for ice cream. So that accounts for some of the bard-like quality of his writing -- he's trying to write as if the stories were written by someone else long ago.

As far as the changes between archaic, formal and informal language, one of the things McKiernan does is claim that some of the races of Mithgar use different styles of language, and he tries to maintain that feel when he "translates" their language. The elves, for example, use very archaic expressions such as "thee" and "thou." I'll admit this didn't bother me too much whenever I read his work, but I can see where it would be bothersome to people not familiar with his work, or who prefer a more consistent style of writing.

I hope my post gives the group some understanding and insight into McKiernan and his writing, as that was my sole intention. I am not trying to change anyone's mind about whether you should like or dislike his work. Hopefully I haven't hijacked your discussion too far off course. :)

But I would recommend reading Eye of the Hunter. This is one of the best fantasy books I've ever read. In fact, I include it on my list of my 10 favorite books ever, of any genre. Your mileage may vary, but it is a very interesting book.
 


Shadowdancer said:
I hope this group doesn't mind, but I started reading this thread because of the book being discussed.

I don't think anyone minds people dropping in and adding to the discussion. Glad to have you!

Shadowdancer said:
I don't remember right off hand what McKiernan did before he became a fiction writer -- some technical job in the defense industry -- but he turned to writing when he was laid up at home for an extended time after a severe accident. He read Tolkien's work, then decided to write a "sequel," if you can imagine that. After finishing it, he shopped it around to various publishers. This is when he learned about copyright laws and such, and that you just couldn't write a book set in another author's world, and use characters and events from that world, without permission.

So in order to get the book published, he changed the names and places, etc., to it wouldn't violate any copyrights. This was the Iron Call, and like Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, was split into three volumes by the publisher because of the size.

Was that the "Iron Tower" series? I think it must have been because it was a fairly close copy of LotR. I found it far too derivative. I don't mind retelling a story--as I've mentioned before--but I hope for at least something new, a fresh voice, a new take on a character, something. I didn't feel that I got that from "Iron Tower" and that was when I was back in high school and nowhere near as critical a reader as I am now.

Shadowdancer said:
As far as the Mithgar novels as a whole, McKiernan's "hook" if you will for the stories is that he found ancient, original scrolls or texts that were written by an unknown author from Mithgar, and he merely translated them for a modern audience. Sort of like what Ed Greenwood used to do with his Elminster articles in Dragon Magazine -- pretending Elminster really did exist in another dimension, and would visit Ed to dictate information about the Forgotten Realms in exchange for ice cream. So that accounts for some of the bard-like quality of his writing -- he's trying to write as if the stories were written by someone else long ago.

And there's nothing wrong with using that device. It's an old, tried and true method. In fact, I've read one Daniel Defoe novel (A Journal of the Plague Year) and have recently picked up another (Memoirs of a Cavalier) in which Defoe did the same thing. Of course, Defoe's manuscripts were supposedly only written earlier rather than on a completely different planet/reality/dimension. I'm not saying it's a bad conceit to use, and many fantasy authors have done the same. I would say, though, that Mr. McKiernan fails at this. In order to accept such a conceit (as part of the willing suspension of disbelief, not as accepting there is a real Mithgar et al), this 'other, original author' needs to have a voice--a specific, recognizable voice. Mr. McKiernan, in my opinion, fails in his lack of consistency. There is no narrative voice, rather a mish-mash of styles and usage. But that's just my opinion.

Shadowdancer said:
As far as the changes between archaic, formal and informal language, one of the things McKiernan does is claim that some of the races of Mithgar use different styles of language, and he tries to maintain that feel when he "translates" their language. The elves, for example, use very archaic expressions such as "thee" and "thou." I'll admit this didn't bother me too much whenever I read his work, but I can see where it would be bothersome to people not familiar with his work, or who prefer a more consistent style of writing.

However, it is not in the dialogue--or perhaps I should more correctly say not only in the dialogue--that this inconsistency occurs. I would say that if the dwarves or the elves or the humans are supposed to use a particular style, that style should remain consistent with those characters/races/cultures/what-have-you. If it is not, it is--again, in my opinion--an excuse for lazy writing. This is what I found with Dragondoom. Characters' usages and syntax would unaccountably change, often in short scenes. Further, the narrative was riddled with this. Also, if Mr. McKiernan is working with the concept that he is translating from an earlier, ancient source, the voice of that source should be reflected in the narrative. I did not find that. In fact, I found the narrative quite muddled, as I mentioned above.

However, to each his own. Mr. McKiernan has his audience and that's a good thing. It's good because he is able to entertain as a story-teller, which is obviously his intent, and those who enjoy his work are entertained, which is the point of literature.

Thanks for offering your take on the book, Shadowdancer. I hope my statements don't seem too caustic. They are not intended to be.
 

Thanks for the input Shadowdancer.

As far as the Mithgar novels as a whole, McKiernan's "hook" if you will for the stories is that he found ancient, original scrolls or texts that were written by an unknown author from Mithgar, and he merely translated them for a modern audience

I was actually going to comment on this. I had forgotten about the "Notes" section at the beginning of the book that mentions this.

I also wanted to mention something McKiernan talks about in the "Foreward Anew" section of the edition of Dragondoom that I have. McKiernan says, and I quote, "...I didn't know how I could tell it such that the reader would know that it was really Elyn's story--hers and Thork's. You see, if I told it in a "linear" fashion, I was afriad that the reader would get focused on the wrong person as being the protagonist in the tale.", end quote. We have all read his solution to his conundrum.

Question...If read linear, do you think you would have focused on the wrong person as the protagonist?

I myself don't think I would have. Read linear, I think I would have felt that Elyn is the main character of the book.

Thoughts?
 

FraserRonald said:
Was that the "Iron Tower" series?
Yes, it was the "Iron Tower." I mistakenly wrote "Iron Call." "The Silver Call" was his second book.

FraserRonald said:
Thanks for offering your take on the book, Shadowdancer. I hope my statements don't seem too caustic. They are not intended to be.
No, they weren't too caustic. I agree with much of what you said. As I wrote in my earlier post, this wasn't one of McKiernan's better novels. He was trying some new things out as a writer, and experimenting, which is a good thing, but he did fail in some of what he was attempting. The real surprise, I guess, is that the book got published anyway, despite its problems.

I'm sure if this had been the first of his books I had read, I might not have read any others. I'm glad I read one of his later, better, books first before reading this one. Sort of how I got into one of my other favorite authors, Clive Cussler, and his Dirk Pitt novels. I read "Raise the Titanic" in high school, when it was on the best seller list. I read a couple of his other novels as they were released, and enjoyed them all. Then I went back and started reading some of his earlier novels, and it was like I was reading the work of a completely different writer. I was beginning to wonder if maybe he had hired a ghost writer to pen "Raise the Titanic" and all the books after. :)
 

nHammer said:
Question...If read linear, do you think you would have focused on the wrong person as the protagonist?

I myself don't think I would have. Read linear, I think I would have felt that Elyn is the main character of the book.

Thoughts?
Count me as one of the few not bothered at all by the non-linear structure. I actually kind of liked it, and it helped with the fact that I was becoming bored with Elyn and Thork. So the flashbacks were a nice break from that storyline.

If written completely linear, one could certainly think that Elgo was the main character, if you avoided spoilers. In fact, one could become attached to Elgo as the protagonist and switching to an Elyn-based story might be jarring.

And we are glad to have anyone participate in the discussion, Shadowdancer. Thanks for your input.
 

One thing that bugged me about the book was that little Silver Horn. First the armsmaster is throwing treasure overboard, but gets stopped before he tosses the Silver Horn. Then Elgo's son wants the Silver Horn. Then the dwarves try to see if the Silver Horn is in the treasure trove. Then the evil wizard wants Kalagath to see if the Silver Horn is in the trove. I felt like I was being bludgeoned by all the foreshadowing of this item, and find out nothing of its importance in the story.
 

Hi,

I avoided this thread till I finished DragonDoom, so I've just read all the other comments now to catch up.

I enjoyed the book overall, but I don't expect to bother with the author again anytime soon.

As many others have said, I too found it slow going in the beginning - trying to find the real story, etc. And the older style definately slowed down my reading.

But it picked up for me in the second half, when I finally knew the whole background - once I knew why Throk and Elyn were in the swamp at the same time.

I think what annoyed me most with the archaic style was the alternative spellings of words. For example, he used the spelling "waggon" quite often, and this did slow me down a bit.

I agree with King Paul that all the fuss about the silver hammer and it not being resolved was also frustrating.

Anyway, I was worried that because I was behind schedule with DragonDoom, I wouldn't be able to finish Tigana in time, but I've found it a real page-turner - easy going but interesting. I'm glad for that, because I want to be able to join in on the discussion when it starts, but also because I do have other books to read ;-)

thanks,

Duncan
 


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