Encounter Level - realistic maximums

[blargney the second]

If the players have foreknowledge that they'll be fighting high level solo monsters, they can build their characters accordingly.

I can tell you this much: that dracolich would slaughter our party, and we're no slouches. The main problem is that it can almost guarantee a continual stunlock on the entire party. ( = NOT FUN.)

 

[Saagael]

Alright I like what I see so far so I'll be a little more specific.

My encounter areas are using +0 to +2 for most battles but as the big bad in my 1st level area I'm using the ubiquitous Young White Dragon. Not too tough but it should cap things off nicely.

I have a series of areas of escalating levels that the group will pass through ending up at 10th or so when they "storm the gate" to open up the big bad guy's castle. I want to make the Gate Boss a Beholder, so we're looking at a lvl 13 controller vs a 10th lvl party. It seems like it would work to me but I haven;t run much yet in 4th, so I am open to advice.

Within the castle I expect the party to hit 11th and start their Paragon path before they meet the final boss. They might even be 12th depending on whether I add another level to the castle or not. I would really like to use a Dracolich for this as it ties in very well with the background, but the MM version is a Lvl 18 solo, so I'm concerned that he might be a little too much for them, but I do want it to be a big fight. Is a DracoLich (possible downlevelled a bit) a reasonable match for a 5- man party at 11th or 12th level?

I'm sketching this in now so I can do some foreshadowing and hinting during the climb through Heroic. It will be quite a while before they get this far. I know there are some options for level adjustments but I'm unsure of how much adjusting might be needed to make this threatening but not an automatic TPK.

De-level the Dracolich to about level 14-15, and replace the "Stun" effect in most powers (I'd do all but one) with something else. I would take a look at all the other big bad undead creatures and copy a power or two from them to give the Dracolich many opportunities in dealing with the party, rather than just stun half the party every turn.

I'd give the Dracolich a minor-action dominate power that recharges on a 6 the dragon can use while bloodied. Then I'd turn its immediate interrupt power into something that deals ongoing 10 fire and necrotic damage (or cold/necrotic depending on your flavor). Increase that damage to 15 when bloodied. That keeps the same tension as a stun but allows the players their actions.

The big thing is you'll want to do something to make the battle drastically shift when the dragon becomes bloodied. Whether it's summoning monsters, destroying the roof/walls, revealing a deadly trap or similar time-constraint, or just become a lot more powerful, don't let the players get into position then just lock down the Dracolich. I've had two dragons succumb to being immobilized, dazed, slowed or sequestered for 5 rounds straight which made the battle boring. Luckily I whipped up some minions for the players to fend off while the dragon got back on its feet.

 

[Talysian]

I typically run 1-2 encounters a day each at level +4-5 Monsters will go from level-2 to Level +2 As an example.

I have five players in my party and a Companion they are level 3.

They recently fought a battle with 6 Skeleton Archerse (Level 3) 3 Skeleton Warriors (Level 3) and 1 Deathlock Wight (Level 4).

1525 xp Budget at level 3.

Now one thing to keep in mind, I modify all non elite/solo creatures as standard.

-25% HP. +1/2 level round up to Damage and I do Average Damage. I.e. on a hit with 2d10+6 a average hit would do 18 damage (6,6,6). The combat dropped the companion, the Warlock, and at the very end the Swordmage, went to just shy of - bloodied. all in all it took slightly over an hour and had the party sitting on the edge of there seat.. Just how I like my combats.

 

[Amaroq]

Nice - you might update your opening post to include a "My Players Stay Out!" tag if any of them like ENWorld.

At Level 1, I'd stick with +0 to +2 battles: I find my players walked through +0's, but not without getting into some use of resources (Healing Surges or Dailies).

Pitting 4 L2's against an L4 Solo Controller was almost perfectly balanced: it came down to "next hit wins" between one PC and the Solo.

By the time you're hitting L10, your range should be much wider; my party handled an L14 Solo with some HP shaved off to keep it from grinding too badly, so I think your L13 Controller v 5 L10's should work out well - by that point you should have a really good feeling for the groups optimization, magic items, etc, so I'd say tweak the battle by adjusting the rest of the encounter.

I suspect the DracoLich will be a bit much for the L11/L12 final boss battle - as others have noted, they may win, but the constant missing will turn it into a real slow grind.

Don't be afraid to do level adjustment - using Monster Maker or Monster Builder, its fairly easy to go up or down with any creature. Practice early on, with non-Elite, non-Solo creatures just tossed into random battles, and you'll get a very good feel for it. I try to include one "Custom", "Named", or otherwise "Special" monster for each combat, rather than having the gang slog through yet another batch of MM routine orcs.

I've gotten a lot of mileage out of mashing things about; one of my players will never forget the L4 ghoul that played like an L6 bugbear strangler!

Based on what you learn about their optimization in the L10 Gateway battle, you'll have real good ideas how to balance a Solo-plus-friends battle against them.

The advice you're getting from the others, especially Flipguarder and Saagel, is spot on. The way to make a Solo feel dangerous is to toy with the action economy by giving it plenty of off-of-its-turn attack powers, and let it "raise the stakes" when Bloodied.

I'm particularly fond of a Rage Drake's ability to do more damage, and tend to apply it to all my Solo's. Depending on your party's build, the ability to shrug off Stun/Dominate can be crucial. Giving it additional actions, such as Minor attacks for limited damage, or Immediate * attacks can really help. Also, typically, save its two Action Points for "when bloodied" rather than burning through them early.

Ideally, you want the party to feel like they had to throw everything they had at it to win.

If you've got the time, it can be well worth it to have your players throw you their character sheets and run the encounter as a test battle, just yourself playing both sides. Obviously any individual fight is subject to 1's, 20's, etc, that may turn the tide, but it can give you an idea of if the defenses are too high, too low, etc.

 

[Lord_Blacksteel]

I'm not too worried about my players finding this as they don't really hang out here and they don't know my screen name.

That does lead into one potential problem - there are some mentions above about optimizing characters and tailoring them for certain fights, and I'm not sure how much of that is going to happen. They're smart, and after 9 years of 3rd edition with them I know they will put some effort in that direction, but not to the degree our online-a-lot selves might do. Additionally none of us have played much 4E, so there will be a learning curve on both sides.

I've avoided DDI until now, figuring I don;t really need it until I actually have a campaign but I may have to take the plunge - the monster modder is probably going to get some work.

Just to share some more, the campaign is Return to the Ruins of Adventure - it's Pool of Radiance converted to 4E and set in the updated timeline -several of us played the computer game and I wanted to add some retro flavor to the new edition. Each section of town is conveniently levelled for budding heroes and there are enough sections to run them up to lvl 10+ pretty easily. The beholder is there because I want to include as many iconic monsters as I can and he fits well. The Dracolich was going to be the reanimated corpse of the possessed dragon from the original adventure, so maybe I could justify downing him a few levels - he's been through a lot after all.

So I can't really count on powered-up characters. I think I'm going to pencil in "dracolich" for now and see where we are when we approach the time for that battle. The lower levels should work out fine - I'm not set on any particular critter and I have a wide level range to work with, but I like to set up some of the major opposition in advance. This kind of conversation is a big help.

 

[LostSoul]

I have run 3 encounters with single high-level opponents.

5-man lvl 8 party vs. Human Lich (Level 14 Elite Controller): TPK. It wouldn't have been if the player of the Fighter had shown up since he had some abilities that would have made a telling difference and the player controlling his PC wasn't aware of them. It was very close. Also very fun.

4-man lvl 6 party vs. Wailing Ghost (Level 12 Controller): This turned into a skill challenge as the party decided to talk to her. Fun encounter.

The same party vs. Drow Archanomancer (Level 13 Artillery): Right after dealing with the Wailing Ghost they were forced to engage the Drow (I'm not sure if they got a short rest or not). Party victory; they lost an NPC, but no other casualties. A good fight, exciting and tense, resolved quickly.

Because of those experiences I don't have a problem running high-level single monsters against a party. The fight against the drow was a really good one.

 

[matkov]

You can still use "change skin" method. I do it a lot and me and my players like it. Just pick up the monster you like, that is in the better level range and describe it to players like dracolich.

You can use adult blue dragon (lvl 13 solo artilery) just change his lightning damage to necrotic or frost/necrotic.

 

[Antronach]

You'd be stunned to see what adding 6-8 minions to an encounter does to it. gives it a much more epic feel too. Another favorite of mine is a solo mob that sheds a minion every time he gets hit (as an opportunity action). Makes the pc's think a bit more strategically.

 

[blargney the second]

Another favorite of mine is a solo mob that sheds a minion every time he gets hit (as an opportunity action).

It's Raining Minions?
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVbWZw88g9k]YouTube - It's raining men, the weather girls[/ame]

 

[Rechan]

If the group is only going to have 1 encounter a day, ratchet up the Encounter level significantly. Level + 5/6. Because PCs will blow their dailies, and the system doesn't expect characters to nova. When characters do use all their dailies, most encounters are cake. Plan accordingly.

On the topic of higher level creatures and look at the bonuses your party is throwing around to-hit. Try not to go over that bonus so the players need to roll a 17 or higher to hit the defenses.

The big problem of using high level creatures is their defenses. So if you just make them more managable to hit, then you can use them fine.