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Level Up (A5E) End the 5 minute work-day by making all classes work off short rests.

ThatGuySteve

Explorer
It depends on what they power & how. I bet if I had said "burning a hitdie to recover second wibd & action surge but I'm not sure if it should recover one or both" your post would have looked very different... Burn a hit die to recover our rages?... maybe... Burn a hit die to make this bow shot a line or burst? same deal... Burn a hit die to cast one of these spells/spell like abilities?.. how is that any different from the prior examples other than being unfinished? The key is that everyone needs to want to use them, right now backline classes hardly ever use their hit dice for anything and they have nothing to use them on
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@Kinematics I think the point is more using hit dice to recover or power balanced amounts of short rest abilities & designing those abilities accordingly so everyone has a decent selection of go to powers that way. Of course it would require not having a couple munchkin classes built entirely to abuse the 5mwd.
Since Second Wind does more healing than hit dice after you've gained a handful of levels, you are not losing anything by burning the hit dice and gaining free hit points. Adding Action Surge on top of that would be way over the top. You can't guarantee a particular class will be front or back line, archer fighters exist and would love that trade in.

I think the mechanism would unfairly punish characters who are more likely to take damage. They need to balance reserving enough hit dice to stay on their feet vs refreshing abilities. Characters less likely to take damage can be more gung ho and spend more on refreshing. I know which one I'd find more fun playing.
 

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Build up momentum within a single combat? Not sure if that'll work.

But - if you have to build up momentum through a few encounters* before you can pull off your coolest moves, you're on to something.

* - and the DM would have to be VERY harsh (as in, out the door with you, old son; it's been nice knowing you) on anyone who tries to 'bag of rats' this rule.

I sort of envisioned that you'd start each combat with 0 GROOVE (I'm using terminology from Capcom vs SNK video games), but could gain GROOVE as you fight. And if you're a 3rd level fighter, you start each combat with 1 GROOVE. A 20th level fighter might start with 5 GROOVE, and gain more than 1 each turn.

Obviously I don't have a full system in mind yet.
 

tetrasodium

Hero
Supporter
Since Second Wind does more healing than hit dice after you've gained a handful of levels, you are not losing anything by burning the hit dice and gaining free hit points. Adding Action Surge on top of that would be way over the top. You can't guarantee a particular class will be front or back line, archer fighters exist and would love that trade in.

I think the mechanism would unfairly punish characters who are more likely to take damage. They need to balance reserving enough hit dice to stay on their feet vs refreshing abilities. Characters less likely to take damage can be more gung ho and spend more on refreshing. I know which one I'd find more fun playing.

No your spending a bonus action in a fight & the character most likely to be taking damage without rage to mitigate it gets a bit of self healing capability. so later when the group has been running for a bit that fighter says "I'm good for hitpoints but I've only got 2 hit dice left... maybe we should think about taking a long rest instead of chasing the fleeing badguys" & the wizard says "Yea I'm kinda low on spell slots for good spells & my emergency button abilities have been eating a lot of my hitdice too"
 


CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Wait, I thought everyone hated all the classes having the same refresh system because it made all too samey?
Usually the "too samey" argument has to do with damage per round, bounded accuracy, probability curves, and other gamey-sounding phrases. This is the first time I've heard it applied to resource recovery...which I admit is also a very gamey-sounding phrase. And I kinda hate it. So yep, that all checks out. :)
 

Lucas Yew

Explorer
Instead of embracing the old "fire now and rest to recharge later" paradigm, I'd rather support a "charge up superpowered deeds by taking time while either soaking/avoiding imminent harm or be protected from it" paradigm.
 

tetrasodium

Hero
Supporter
Wait, I thought everyone hated all the classes having the same refresh system because it made all too samey?
@CleverNickName touched on it & nails it but I'll show just how bad it was with this review of 4e started partway in at a relative point. Having a mix of always available stuff (sneak attack/multiattack/ regular attack/ritual spells/etc) along with spend a hit die for this thing, in addition to spell slots for spells is important to keep even if some stuff is created or shifted to be fueled by hit dice. For casters, misty step/shield/absorb elements/false life/maybe even counterspell might be good hit die fueled abilities to compare against the example of recovering second wind or action surge but I'm not sure if they should all use the same number of hitdice. I pulled "emergency button abilities" from thin air earlier rather than some deeply considered & thought out subsystem & the specific ones are just pulled to fit the conversation. Might be that cleric sorcerer bard & so forth have a completely different type of abilities they power with hitdice. Sorcerers might power metamagic for example
 

Asisreo

Archdevil's Advocate
So, this discussion got me thinking exactly how a DM would introduce a risk to players sitting on their hands without a fight interruption and I had remembered something:

Uncomfortable environments. Imagine for a second that there's a lower level party without taking prestidigation or any spell similar to it. They have to fight in a ruined mummy's tomb but they're experiencing Extreme Heat. Well, with no real means to defend themselves against the heat, they'd be quickly gaining levels of exhaustion with iterative additions to their Constitution save DC. Going 20 hours without resting will most certainly kill them, which adds pressure.

I looked into Curse of Strahd to see what they had done and, without spoiling, I'll say they check for random encounters for every 10 minutes during rest attempts. There was a 15% chance that a random encounter would happen and the random encounters were not all combat, but even with those odds, the chances that the characters could get away with a peaceful 20 hours in the specific area was short.

Looking deeper, I noticed some more patterns. Put briefly:

Not all areas are meant to use up all resources that the players had during every movement in that adventure. Some were just meant for the players to explore without the threat of attrition.

Some areas threatened to have all the forces of the area crash onto the players if they are detected and hostile. They were balanced not as separate encounters, though. It was balanced as a multi-wave encounter which made it less unfair for short rest classes.
 

tetrasodium

Hero
Supporter
Looking deeper, I noticed some more patterns. Put briefly:

Not all areas are meant to use up all resources that the players had during every movement in that adventure. Some were just meant for the players to explore without the threat of attrition.

Some areas threatened to have all the forces of the area crash onto the players if they are detected and hostile. They were balanced not as separate encounters, though. It was balanced as a multi-wave encounter which made it less unfair for short rest classes.
This is why people complain about how 5e forces the GM to play rest police. In the first example classes designed to munchkinize the 5 minute work day are much more powerful than the long rest leaning classes while in the second example the long rest classes are not really that much if any notable amount more powerful than the short rest classes. The only time it really shows is when the GM punishes the party with a meatgrinder that unfairly punishes everyone.

In the old days of 3.5 you rested a full night (8 hrs) phb146 to recover 1hp/level but could do a full 24hrs bedrest for double that. If you rest for for 8 hours wizard/sorcerer/bard got their spells back ph178 (divine casters prayed to recover their spells at a particular time of day like dawn or whatever). For every day of rest you recovered one point of ability score damage. PHB75/76 had some rules for providing long term care that accelerated things some using the heal skill. Also Complete warrior had a feat called faster healing that shifted those like so
1597810264233.png


In practice everyone would look at how much hp they were down & if it was really bad they'd probably go back to a town or somewhere safe so the casters with heal spells & abilities could safely dump all of their spell slots leaving them in an effectively helpless condition but if not too bad they might spend whatever heals they have left over & rest while eating the attrition or proceeding to use some consumable resources like potions/scrolls/wand charges. All of that time translated into baddies & npcs are doing a lot so every little bit added up to far more risk than "guess the wizard will need to cast tiny hut & we will sleep safely in the improved force cube laughing at the dangerous monsters we've been killing" The idea that some classes should recover a significant amount of their abilities on a smoke break was just silly & would have been massively broken. 5e's recover all hp spell slots & other class abilities by sleeping the night is not long enough to force the party to trek back to town or burn up a bunch of consumable resources and is too quick for much beyond a random encounter or getting chased by the leftovers but a third level ritual spell completely shields the party from most of that including a lot of environmental effects.

Even in 5e CoS I can't recall ever seeing a party consider trekking back to one of the places safe to rest & there was certainly nothing I recall from CoS like
1597811627757.png

1597811641214.png
that might make it something that the party would consider. Unfortunately 5e is pretty much tuned under the assumption that rests are fairly plentiful so even trying to force it by porting that kind of thing over would cause a lot of problems between classes.
 

John R Davis

Explorer
Every class ( maybe heritage) should get something back in a short rest. To take a short rest though should cost ' something' to bring in some balance. Maybe you have to spend a Hit Dice to take a short rest ( bit harsh at 1st level) or there is a law of diminishing returns ( so you get an absolute minimum back after 3rd short rest).
 

ThatGuySteve

Explorer
Every class ( maybe heritage) should get something back in a short rest. To take a short rest though should cost ' something' to bring in some balance. Maybe you have to spend a Hit Dice to take a short rest ( bit harsh at 1st level) or there is a law of diminishing returns ( so you get an absolute minimum back after 3rd short rest).
Something like wizards' Arcane Recovery. Remove it being once per long rest. Add "each time you use this feature you regain one less level of spells, minimum 1" . That way the wizard can keep getting something out of short rests, but with diminishing returns.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Above and beyond all else I would like to see the end of the 5 minute work-day by making all classes based around short rests. Every class should regain class features on a short rest.

It's not a good idea, as others have pointed out.

If all features recharge on a short rest, then everyone is encouraged to "go nova" on every single combat encounter, and take a short rest afterwards.

This forces the DM to have more or less all encounters the same difficulty. The idea that on a given day the PCs have a variety of encounters between the easiest ones, which consume few resources, and the hardest ones which prompt the PCs to activate their most valuable abilities i.e. the "dailies" which won't recharge until next day. You potentially eliminate one good resources management aspect of the game.

Gaming groups which practice the "5 minutes workday" are very few. In fact, the idea makes the adventures suck big time and those who fall into this trap generally learn by themselves that it's not fun. Anyway, the reality is that adventure pacing, variety and inherent unpredictability all make the "5 minutes workday" strategy unfeasible unless the DM purposefully makes it possible.

In other words, I believe that the "5 minutes workday" problem is a myth. It exists only in theory, but no gaming group is dumb enough to allow this to keep happening on the long term. It can happen occasionally that the PCs can manage to take a long rest just before the BBEG confrontation to maximise their chances... and what exactly is wrong with that? It is in fact part of good planning, but it is still subject to lots of uncertainties.

I'd rather eliminate the 5-minute workday by using the rules for "gritty realism" in the DMG. Short rests = 8 hours, Long rests = 1 week. Resource management becomes a lot more important, and natural healing makes a little bit more sense. The decision to "go nova" in an encounter becomes a lot more important, and not to be made lightly. The party will be a lot less likely to take a long rest after each battle if they know it will cause them to fail their mission (or die of old age).

Indeed, your suggestion to go the opposite direction does in fact have a positive effect on a group tempted to take too many rests.

Normally, a day-night cycle is enough to prevent the PCs wanting to call it quit too early, because a lot of stuff can happen around them in a day, so that they cannot normally afford to just wait until tomorrow before continuing their quest.

Your idea means that calling it quit to regain all limited abilities is simply a no-go, as it means that the rest of the world has potentially up to a whole week to go on with their business, likely making you botch your quest. It might still makes sense for the PC to wait a whole week in the slowest-possible paced adventures, but generally it will mean that 1-week long rests are taken mostly between adventures, during travelling, or (if the DM considers this light enough activity) while investigating.
 

glass

(he, him)
If all features recharge on a short rest, then everyone is encouraged to "go nova" on every single combat encounter, and take a short rest afterwards.
"All classes have features that recharge on a short rest" is not the same as "all features of all classes recharging on a short rest". I would be opposed to the latter for the reasons you outline in your post (that I snipped), but the former has some merit. Encounter powers are good because they provide variety within each combat. Daily powers are good because they provide variety between different combats.

That said, I would not necessarily give all classes encounter powers so much as all characters.

_
glass.
 
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CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
The point I'm trying to make is that there is already too much incentive to take constant rests in our games ("our" being my gaming group; I don't speak for anyone else). Adding any features to the already-abused short rest would only exacerbate that problem.
 

clearstream

Be just and fear not...
It's not a good idea, as others have pointed out.

If all features recharge on a short rest, then everyone is encouraged to "go nova" on every single combat encounter, and take a short rest afterwards.

This forces the DM to have more or less all encounters the same difficulty. The idea that on a given day the PCs have a variety of encounters between the easiest ones, which consume few resources, and the hardest ones which prompt the PCs to activate their most valuable abilities i.e. the "dailies" which won't recharge until next day. You potentially eliminate one good resources management aspect of the game.

Gaming groups which practice the "5 minutes workday" are very few. In fact, the idea makes the adventures suck big time and those who fall into this trap generally learn by themselves that it's not fun. Anyway, the reality is that adventure pacing, variety and inherent unpredictability all make the "5 minutes workday" strategy unfeasible unless the DM purposefully makes it possible.

In other words, I believe that the "5 minutes workday" problem is a myth. It exists only in theory, but no gaming group is dumb enough to allow this to keep happening on the long term. It can happen occasionally that the PCs can manage to take a long rest just before the BBEG confrontation to maximise their chances... and what exactly is wrong with that? It is in fact part of good planning, but it is still subject to lots of uncertainties.



Indeed, your suggestion to go the opposite direction does in fact have a positive effect on a group tempted to take too many rests.

Normally, a day-night cycle is enough to prevent the PCs wanting to call it quit too early, because a lot of stuff can happen around them in a day, so that they cannot normally afford to just wait until tomorrow before continuing their quest.

Your idea means that calling it quit to regain all limited abilities is simply a no-go, as it means that the rest of the world has potentially up to a whole week to go on with their business, likely making you botch your quest. It might still makes sense for the PC to wait a whole week in the slowest-possible paced adventures, but generally it will mean that 1-week long rests are taken mostly between adventures, during travelling, or (if the DM considers this light enough activity) while investigating.
To chime in on this. I've tested several rest variants over almost a hundred game sessions. I tested RAW, all short rest with probabilistic recovery, all short rest with rest points, gritty realism, and my homebrew gritty realism. The most successful has been my homebrew of gritty realism, which I will paste here in case it helps, and which you may use however you like. I want to stress that this has been extensively playtested in live sessions.

A DM might dislike this approach, but the mechanics per se are pretty robust. For example, we found with Gritty Realism as written that our game balance shifted to favour short rest classes, like warlocks. The obvious fix was to shorten long rests and lengthen short rests, but then that turned out to also need the gap between rests rule so that short or long rests couldn't be immediately repeated... pushing players to choose sensibly between the two. Allowing rests to extend into one another also worked out well (once you get your head around it). The reduced availability of higher level spells like raise dead also had a very positive impact on the campaign.

A dungeoneering campaign is likely fine with RAW. Anything that meaningfully steps out beyond the dungeon might benefit well from these rules. The essence of why it works is that the narrative time opened up allows a DM to easily and plausibly advance events when characters rest. It is not a hard-fix (such as if rest points are accumulated per session, say) but it works very well. If you have Xanathar's, longer rests also dovetail nicely with more ways to use downtime.

Slower Recovery

Breather
A breather is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character performs no more than lowkey activity such as reading, talking, eating, drinking or standing watch. If it is interrupted by adventuring activity—fighting, casting spells, marching, or similar—characters must start the rest over to gain any benefit from it.
At the end of a breather—characters can spend Hit Dice to regain hit points.


Sleep or Trance
A breather can be extended into a sleep or trance. Characters who sleep need 8 hours while those who trance need only 4. Warlocks benefiting from Aspect of the Moon can spend 4 hours reading their Book of Shadows instead of sleeping.
Upon waking—characters who sleep or trance in comfort and eat and drink recover one level of exhaustion.


Short Rest
A sleep or trance can be extended into a short rest of about a day (total). At the end of that rest—characters with sufficient XP level up, those who prepare spells can change their lists, and any features that can refresh at the end of a short rest, do so.

Long Rest
A short rest can be extended into a long rest of around three days (total). A character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of such a rest to gain its benefits; and must sleep or trance each day.
At the end of that rest—characters regain all lost hit points and any features that can refresh at the end of a long rest, do so. Those who sleep or trance in comfort and eat and drink regain spent Hit Dice up to half their total number of them (at least 1) and recover completely from exhaustion.


Between Rests
Rests can be extended into a longer rest, but can't and don't overlap. When characters finish a rest incorporating a given type, they cannot benefit from another rest of that type until time equal to its duration has passed, e.g. characters finishing a short rest can’t benefit from a breather for an hour.

Sleeping and Trancing, and Armor
Characters sleeping or trancing in medium or heavy armor aren’t comfortable.
 
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Hecubus

Villager
How about Go gritty DMG rules and put mechanics/food/magic in place that can turn rests into shortER periods, like druids and rangers or others using survival or medicine checks to speed things up. Maybe feats and race, or class features that allow for it. The super hero can get back on his feat far quicker.
 

Phoebasss

Explorer
Given how often rests are in conflict in 5e, I think we should move to either a 13th age style system, or instant short rests.

The 13th age system applied to 5e would look like this. After every combat you get a short rest, after 4 (sometimes 3, if it fits the narrative / you beat your players up too much in each fight) combats you get a long rest.

Instant short rests are what they sound like. This solves the 5 minute work day by just not allowing you to take a long rest if you overdid it in your first combat of the rest cycle. You have to live with the consequences.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
Given how often rests are in conflict in 5e, I think we should move to either a 13th age style system, or instant short rests.
I was thinking something along these lines:

Make short rest abilities per encounter.
Make long rest abilities short rest.

But I'm not sold on it yet.
 

Phoebasss

Explorer
I was thinking something along these lines:

Make short rest abilities per encounter.
Make long rest abilities short rest.

But I'm not sold on it yet.
I do think players should sleep, so I'm keen on keeping long rests at maybe slighly shorter than their current length for that purpose. But I do get annoyed when GMs use the fact that long rests are 8 hours to fuck over players with an encounter 7 hours into a rest.
 

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