Energy drain and spellcasting

[shilsen]

The following situation came up in the RttToEE campaign in which I am a player. A pair of PCs were level drained, with a 7th lvl Clr gaining 2 negative levels (making him effectively 5th lvl), and a 8th lvl Wiz gaining 4 negative levels (making him effectively 4th lvl). The wizard's player wanted to cast a fireball, and the DM ruled that since his effective level was too low to cast 3rd lvl spells, he could not do so. This is not explicitly covered in the rules on energy drain in the DMG, where it mentions only that the drained PC loses one of his highest level spell slots (and possibly a prepared spell) for each negative level. I agree with my DM's ruling, but just wanted to check and see if anyone on this board has a definite reference to a rule covering this question. Thanks in advance.

 

[hong]

An 8th level character with 4 negative levels is not "effectively a 4th level character"; he's still an 8th level character but with problems. Unless losing 4 spell slots is enough to wipe out all his 3rd level spell slots, he could still cast fireball (and it would still do 8d6 damage, save for half).

 

[shilsen]

An 8th level character with 4 negative levels is not "effectively a 4th level character"; he's still an 8th level character but with problems. Unless losing 4 spell slots is enough to wipe out all his 3rd level spell slots, he could still cast fireball (and it would still do 8d6 damage, save for half).

Actually there's not much space for debate about effectively being a 4th level character. The DMG says (pg.75) that negative levels incurred by a creature give it a "-1 effective level (whenever the creature's level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level)". That's pretty conclusive, wouldn't you say?

What I want to know is if the character referred to in my first post would be able to cast a fireball (the negative levels had not wiped out all the 3rd lvl spell slots) causing 4d6 damage. My DM and I don't think so, and I just wanted to confirm that.

 

[hong]

Actually there's not much space for debate about effectively being a 4th level character. The DMG says (pg.75) that negative level's incurred by a creature give it a "-1 effective level (whenever the creature's level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level)". That's pretty conclusive, wouldn't you say?

Yes; and the DMG goes on to list the specific penalties applying to a character with negative levels. Losing entire spell levels is not one of these penalties, but losing spell slots is. My mistake on the 8d6 damage thing, but other than that, there's no reason why the wizard can't still cast fireball.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

How many spell slots you get is reading a matrix - it is not a calculation or a die roll. Therefore, you only lose your highest level spell prepared. You don't "calculate the number of slots you get based off of caster level" by an equation - you look at the chart. Therefore, you still have the spell slots from which to cast the spells.

Now, when you go to cast the fireball, you have to calculate your caster level. which is 4th. So, you CAN cast the fireball - albeit only at 4th caster level - for 4d6.

This is critical at the highest levels of the game - when the chief Necromancer bad guy manages to sling the following in one round... with haste up (he got the drop on us - and the initiative...) drops a time stop - rolling a 3 on the duration.

The nasty spells that followed were most unkind -

The Party cleric got 2 horrid wiltings and a quickened fireball - enough to kill her...

The Ranger/rogue and the "conventional" rogue got ensuing swarm of energy spells...

For Me - the GM had something extra nasty -
2 energy drains and a quickened enveneration

He got lucky - and rolled 3,2,3,4,2 - for a total of 13 negative energy levels on My 17th level diviner/loremaster.

I thought for sure I was as good as dead - but I wasn't. We looked at the rules - realized this nice loophole - and as I had a feeblemind prepared - you can guess what I threw at Him...

It hit - thankfully.

The other two players made short work of the now bumbling necromancer - and I knew I had to move fast. Teleport time to get to an NPC cleric off My emergency scroll (which was a dangerous roll to make - but necessary) - who then bailed us out, and brought back our buddy from the lands beyond the next day.

The GM told us what the Necromancer would have done had that feeblemind NOT worked. We figured out real fast that had that feeblemind not worked - we would have been one dead band of adventurers for sure.

Lesson learned by party rogues - check for alarm spells as traps.

 

[shilsen]

I'm a little leery of letting people cast spells that they couldn't have access to if their effective levels were their actual levels (like the 4d6 fireball, for example), but I guess the rules don't explicitly forbid it. Thanks for the responses.

 

[Henrix]

I'm a little leery of letting people cast spells that they couldn't have access to if their effective levels were their actual levels (like the 4d6 fireball, for example), but I guess the rules don't explicitly forbid it.

You've got to stop thinking of an 8th level character with four negative levels as a 4th level character. He _is_ still an 8th level wizard. (At least until the next morning, when he may loose some levels.)