Enervation and criticals?

[Caliban]

Well, now, don't be too hasty

You see, pre-Tome and Blood, this wasn't spelled out. While it states under the description of Energy Drain that energy drain special attacks inflict double negative levels on a critical, that passage doesn't apply to spells; and if you'd taken a poll pre-T&B as to how many DMs thought you could deal Sneak Attack damage along with Enervation, I'd guess most would have said "No".

Tome and Blood also changed - not clarified, but changed - the rules for Sharing Spells with a familiar, for example.

So a 3.5 DM might quite fairly say "Tome and Blood rules don't apply to 3.5, and you can only crit with a spell that deals hit point damage."

-Hyp.

I don't have my books with me right now, but if I remember right, the last time this came up it was determined that the wording for negative levels has changed in 3.5, they are no longer described as "damage" and therefore can't crit.

 

[Caliban]

I don't have my books with me right now, but if I remember right, the last time this came up it was determined that the wording for negative levels has changed in 3.5, they are no longer described as "damage" and therefore can't crit.

 

[Scion]

The wording looks exactly the same to me, both say exactly the same thing in each edition (although currently I only have the srd's to go by). I also cant find any other threads that talk about it that are anywhere near recent, do you have a link?

 

[the Jester]

Thanks all, I really like the 'stack = crit, doesnt stack = no crit'. Is this fairly universal? are there any exceptions?

Poison (the spell).

 

[Scion]

The poison spell doesnt do any damage, it infects the target with poison which then does damage. You could use the same logic for contagion

Poison
Necromancy
Level: Clr 4, Drd 3
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
Calling upon the venomous powers of natural predators, you infect the subject with a horrible poison by making a successful melee touch attack. The poison deals 1d10 points of temporary Constitution damage immediately and another 1d10 points of temporary Constitution damage 1 minute later. Each instance of damage can be negated by a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 your caster level + your Wis modifier).

 

[Kyramus]

Per 3.5 PHB page 140, under critical hits
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll, such as shocking grasp, or melf's acid arrow, can score a critical hit. A spell cattack that requires no attack roll, such as lightning bolt, cannot score a critical hit.

So any spell with an attack roll can crit, according to above.

Page 175, second paragraph: If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.

According to page 175, that means enervation SHOULD be allowed to double if a 20 is rolled and is confirmed crit.

Page 307 of the 3.5 players hand book defines Damage as: a decrease in hitpoints, an ability score, or other aspects of a character caused by an injury, illness, or magical effect.

Hmm negative levels is a magical effect, isn't it, especially coming from enervation.

Now if we look at negative levels, they say there is a chance to permanently loose a level per negative level. If we look at enervation it states that it doesn't loose levels because the duration isn't long enough to do so (max 15 hours).

So if i were to run this, enervation doing a 20 and confirmed would cause 2d4 negative levels. After caster level in hours, the pc gets the levels back.

Makes NPC casters with enervation much more nastier, especially with weapon focus ray, improved crit ray. hehehehehe

For poison, I would allow a 2d10 constitution damage. How often do you see critical hits get confirmed anyway? Besides when you are high level, you'd have other resources to deal with it.

 

[Caliban]

Per 3.5 PHB page 140, under critical hits
For poison, I would allow a 2d10 constitution damage. How often do you see critical hits get confirmed anyway? Besides when you are high level, you'd have other resources to deal with it.

Poison definitely is not doubled on a critical. Bonus damage and effects delivered with the attack are not doubled on a critical.

The initial attack roll does no damage, it just delivers the poison. You then make a save against the poison.

Besides, 2d10 Con damage can kill most characters outright, no matter what level they are.

 

[Kyramus]

Poison definitely is not doubled on a critical. Bonus damage and effects delivered with the attack are not doubled on a critical.

The initial attack roll does no damage, it just delivers the poison. You then make a save against the poison.

Besides, 2d10 Con damage can kill most characters outright, no matter what level they are.

If it were permanent con damage, I would say yes, but Poison does temporary ability damage. So far temporary damage doesn't kill you if you go to 0, you fall unconscious.
I was just looking to see if there was anything that would support my arguement, the only one i see is under the definition of ability drain. It states that a permanent loss of point, then the effects of a stat at 0. Con at 0 would kill a person IF IT WAS A PERMANENT 0. A temporary 0 would mean they are unconscious for a day then they are at 1, etc.
So with that effect, I would still allow a 2d10 IF the character/npc rolled a 20 and confirmed the crit and the target fails the save.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If it were permanent con damage, I would say yes, but Poison does temporary ability damage. So far temporary damage doesn't kill you if you go to 0, you fall unconscious.

ABILITY SCORE LOSS
Various attacks cause ability score loss, either ability damage or ability drain. Points lost to ability damage return at the rate of 1 point per day (or double that if the character gets complete bed rest) to each damaged ability, and the spells lesser restoration and restoration offset ability damage as well. Ability drain, however, is permanent, though restoration can restore even those lost ability score points.

While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.

Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.

Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.

Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.

Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.

Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.

Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.

-----

Ability damage - as from poison - still causes loss of points, even though it's temporary. If you lose enough points for your Con to hit 0 - even if it's temporary damage - you die.

-Hyp.

 

[Scion]

touch attack crits tend to be incredibly easy to confirm, hard to get that natural 20 though

I definately wouldnt multiply that 1d10 con damage.. oh wow that would be scary.. I have seen characters get black lotus extract poisoned and it is not pretty.. I will never understand how dms cant strike fear into players eyes.. saying, 'his blackened blade has a thin sheen of poison on it. It glints with a sickly green malice and you realize that it is black lotus extract. As the blade bites into your flesh you feel searing ice through your viens... make me a fortitude save and pray to your god that you make it'

3d6 con damage will make any character shake.. 2d10 is very similar