Entangle needs nerfing...

[beaver1024]

If we can accept "that Rogue got the drop on us and kicked our ass", why all the panic over "we went into the forest and that Druid kicked our ass"?

Because the rogue can only kick our ass some of the time. The druid can do it all the time. Do you think entangle is the only overpowered ability the druid has?

 

[Shadowdweller]

Ahem. What are the benefits of entangling the enemy? Lowered AC and hit roll. As has been said, not exactly helpless (unable to act at all) as might be the result of many other spells (Color Spray, Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, etc).

Another issue many people seem to be forgetting here is that while it forces the enemy to rely on ranged weapons...it also forces other party members to do the exact same thing (unless you are able to place the center so as to put the enemies on a boundry...but it becomes much more easily escapable then). So, ON TOP of the circumstantial nature of the combat terrain, it relies upon the party having certain capabilities to use effectively.

DC:20 is indeed a high ability check. However, it's an ability check to allow someone to circumvent the spell AFTER failing the save DC.

 

[Crothian]

Because the rogue can only kick our ass some of the time. The druid can do it all the time. Do you think entangle is the only overpowered ability the druid has?

Its not an overpowered ability....it has limitations just like everything else in the game. However, some DMs don't incorperate those limitations in their game so the Druid seems more powerful.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Ahem. What are the benefits of entangling the enemy? Lowered AC and hit roll. As has been said, not exactly helpless (unable to act at all) as might be the result of many other spells (Color Spray, Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, etc).

Another issue many people seem to be forgetting here is that while it forces the enemy to rely on ranged weapons...it also forces other party members to do the exact same thing (unless you are able to place the center so as to put the enemies on a boundry...but it becomes much more easily escapable then). So, ON TOP of the circumstantial nature of the combat terrain, it relies upon the party having certain capabilities to use effectively.

DC:20 is indeed a high ability check. However, it's an ability check to allow someone to circumvent the spell AFTER failing the save DC.

Here is the problem with your assertion: Acrane casters. Whereas an unimpeded enemy can close quickly, making the standard area effect damaging spells unusable, an entangled enemy is held at a useful distance for a few rounds of fireballs and ice storms. That is a serious advantage. It is a fantastic force multiplier with a party. Its large area of effect and the difficulty in escaping said area make it a 'must have' outdoor spell. When a spell becomes 'must have', a problem exists, either with the spell or the campaign.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Here is the problem with your assertion: Acrane casters. Whereas an unimpeded enemy can close quickly, making the standard area effect damaging spells unusable, an entangled enemy is held at a useful distance for a few rounds of fireballs and ice storms. That is a serious advantage. It is a fantastic force multiplier with a party. Its large area of effect and the difficulty in escaping said area make it a 'must have' outdoor spell. When a spell becomes 'must have', a problem exists, either with the spell or the campaign.

That presumes that there is an Evoker or similar styled Wizard or Sorceror in the party. Given the scaled up HPs in 3e, boosted up even further in 3.5, I would tend to believe that such spellcasters should given more opportunities for such team synergies rather than fewer.

Even then it is not likely to be a killer combo. Once the Entangle is cast, the ~50% of the enemy who made their saves tend to scatter out of the AoE. Unless the enemy is extremely unlucky on the saving throws, the Entangled zone is probably the least optimal place to lob a Fireball.

Furthermore anything less than the heaviest growth will be wiped away by the Fireball. How many HPs does grass have?

The bottom line is that I do not find anything particularly troubling about a 1st level that is approximately as good as a 2nd level spell under special circumstances. Furthermore, the very nature of Entangle is so defensive it does almost nothing useful if you cannot set up some kind of combo.

Unless the Druid is loaded to the gills with Flamestrikes and has the luxury to burn through those spells in the combat at hand, the Druid class itself is pretty darn lousy at killing someone in an Entangle. The Entangle is a barrier against the Druid's best tricks. Summon animals and send them into the Entangle? Wildshape, wade in and risk getting Entangled? Same for Animal Companion? Produce Flame or pull out the old sling? It is not a very impressive list.

 

[dagger]

Sorry, the balance point that entangle isn't useful in some terrain doesn't change the fact that the terrain it IS useful in happens to be the majority in most campaigns. If you don't think the spell is overpowered, then please present better reasons. A fireball is useless on the elemental plane of fire and throughout most of the lower planes. Is that a balancing factor on fireball?

Most campaigns? How do you know that?

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Because most campaigns have some sort of vegetation in them.

 

[Len]

Because most campaigns have some sort of vegetation in them.

But it's not "the majority" of terrain where combats occur. At least not in the campaigns I've played.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I agree. But that's not the point. As has been pointed out already, having a 1st-lvl insta-kill spell with no save and no SR isn't balanced just b/c it can only be used once in a blue moon. Spells of a certain level are supposed to be relatively balanced with each other. Entangle is not.

 

[Len]

I agree. But that's not the point.

Hey, you're the one who equated "some" with "the majority", not me.