D&D 5E Enworld Vecna Battles, Commentary

Just what @Stalker0 said. D&D has special abilities with a whole body of rules about how they work. They're called spells. They've now discarded those rules by making these not-spells and the result is a lot of confusion about how they should work in play. I think they could rectify this in 5.5 or 6 by creating a new set of rules for them...but why? If the goal is to simplify and streamline, it ain't doing that IMO.
ehh I disagree there. They are not spells, and they already existed in statblocks. Like the Mind Flayer Mind Blast.
 

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DND_Reborn

Legend
Vecna does work fine without Shield.

The funny thing is, regarding shield, is IIRC in the current battle, he hasn't even used it because it would use his reaction for the turn. 🤷‍♂️

While Vecna can use fell rebuke against melee attacks and teleport, as the archers show unless it allows him to move behind total cover, it doesn't help since they can still attack him at range.

Even in the earlier fights, when Vecna used fell rebuke, sufficient movement and/or being engaged already, the martial can re-engage and continue its attacks.

Considering martial attacks are likely +11 at level 20, 70% (7 or higher) of the attacks will hit Vecna! Shield at least can be used to drop that to 45%.
 

MarkB

Legend
The funny thing is, regarding shield, is IIRC in the current battle, he hasn't even used it because it would use his reaction for the turn. 🤷‍♂️

While Vecna can use fell rebuke against melee attacks and teleport, as the archers show unless it allows him to move behind total cover, it doesn't help since they can still attack him at range.

Even in the earlier fights, when Vecna used fell rebuke, sufficient movement and/or being engaged already, the martial can re-engage and continue its attacks.

Considering martial attacks are likely +11 at level 20, 70% (7 or higher) of the attacks will hit Vecna! Shield at least can be used to drop that to 45%.
Also worth noting, if there are any spellcasters on the field, they may as well counterspell his shield spell if he uses it, since it's the one time they can rely upon not getting Dread Counterspelled in return.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Also worth noting, if there are any spellcasters on the field, they may as well counterspell his shield spell if he uses it, since it's the one time they can rely upon not getting Dread Counterspelled in return.
However as we saw with my sorc in one of the previous fights, that means you yourself won’t have a shield spell when the attacks come
 

Stalker0

Legend
Someone on youtube posted an interesting idea. If Vecna can scry on the PC spellcaster, they can then use dread counterspell on them at will, as it has no range and just requires sight. So you can sit in your chair and just knock out every spell the PC uses while moving through your lair.
 



MarkB

Legend
I mean no one said its entirely foolproof, but it is still a very solid and nasty way to mess with PCs right at the beginning of the lair.
And better still, it gets them to thinking that the Dread Counterspell effect is just some kind of built-in defense in his lair, and by the time they actually reach him they may have given up on spellcasting entirely.
 

I really can't understand this spells argument.

Vecna has spells. Vecna has a special rule that says he can have any other spell or magical effect in the game. You have a simple structure (at will, 3/day, 2/day, 1/day) for putting the spells up there. You can easily just say "casts this spell at 7th" level.

It just feels like the only way to actually take this no spells argument seriously is to just assume that a DM should never under any circumstances have to change a statblock, and that's absurd for a game like D&D.

Should a list of thematic possible spells have been included? Yes, and that's something I ask for. But..spells aren't gone. And there were already magical effects in the game that didn't use spells that originate from monsters. How does a vampire change shape? How does a dragon breath fire? How does an Elder Brain take over your mind? How does a gith use — oh wait that's spells. Uh, how does a gargoyle become indetectable?

All these magic effects in the game don't use spells, and I'm tired of all NPC magic-users having to be coup'd up in spells. A magic-user should be able to use multiple kinds of magic, with things like "Arcane Blast" or "Dread Counterspell" being alternative routes to magical ability beyond cantrips and spells.

Another argument then pops up: how come PCs can't do it? Well, how come a PC can't take over your mind without spells via Elder Brain? How come a PC can't reincarnate in Hell after "dying" like a devil? Because most magic is outside the hands of the PCs, and naughty word like Arcane Blast is basically a worse Eldritch Blast, and Dread Counterspell is clearly a Vecna original.

And this isn't to say all of your feelings aren't valid. And this isn't to shut down conversation either. Its just, every time I bring up these points, the answers are basically "I don't want to do that!" Well sorry, Bill (made up name, sry if any of you are named Bill!), but if you can be arsed to put in the effort to memorize a 25-item spell list, you can be arsed to add 5-6 spells to your magic-user spellblock. For those of us who aren't tied up in the whole "All magic-users have to use spells and no other form of magic," we finally have a way to run the game without having to add a lot of stuff, and if we want too, we easily can. A lot easier then having to understand the divine, esoteric mathematics behind an archmages 20 prepared spells, why they have each spell, what each spell does, and how each spell interacts with each other and higher casting.
 

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