Epic class BAB/save progression when you have natural Hit Dice

[Alzrius]

The rules regarding epic progression for BAB and saves seems pretty clear initially - class levels after 20 follow the epic BAB and save progression chart in the ELH, whereas BAB/saves derived from natural Hit Dice are not subject to this restriction. However, I'm having a problem figuring out exactly how that'd work when a character has both natural HD and class levels.

I've always worked under the assumption that whenever you have 20 HD - regardless of whether they're natural Hit Dice or from class levels - any class levels you take after that are subject to the epic progression rules for class-related BAB/saves. However, I recently talked with someone who had a different idea: that regardless of natural HD, the epic class BAB/save progression only kicks in after you take 20 class levels.

The ELH doesn't seem to address this, and the FAQ isn't totally clear:

When is a monster character considered epic level? Do you “go epic” when your total class levels equal 20 or when your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+?

A monster becomes an epic-level character when its character level hits 21, just like any other character. A monster’s character level equals its racial Hit Dice + class levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level Handbook.)

A creature’s ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic character, although once it becomes an epic character, its ECL continues to affect how much experience it earns and when it can add a new level.

So, if I make a Balor Fighter 20, does he use the Fighter's listed BAB and saves on top of his natural stats, or does he use the epic class progression for his Fighter levels instead?

 

[Pyrex]

A Balor already has 20hd, so is (as far as epic-ness is concerned) already a 20th level character.

When a Balor takes a level of Ftr, he gains +1 BAB and +0 to Saves. When he takes his second level of Ftr, he gains +0 BAB and +1 to Saves.

Also note that a Balor / Ftr 2 *does not* get to take Epic feats for his fighter bonus feats. You have to have 21 or more Ftr levels to take Epic Fighter bonus feats.

 

[Quartz]

Also note that a Balor / Ftr 2 *does not* get to take Epic feats for his fighter bonus feats. You have to have 21 or more Ftr levels to take Epic Fighter bonus feats.

Got a cite for that? It would mean that fighters can forget about multiclassing or taking a Prestige Class. None of the Epic feats has a requirement of Fighter Level X, simply BAB +X. Indeed, if you look at the Epic feats for spellcasters, they simply require being able to cast 9th level spells or Spellcraft X'

Indeed, Epic levels so nerf the combat types that it is counterintuitive and I've never been in a game that follows this. We've always played that if you're an Epic character you can take Epic feats.

 

[irdeggman]

Got a cite for that? It would mean that fighters can forget about multiclassing or taking a Prestige Class. None of the Epic feats has a requirement of Fighter Level X, simply BAB +X. Indeed, if you look at the Epic feats for spellcasters, they simply require being able to cast 9th level spells or Spellcraft X'

Indeed, Epic levels so nerf the combat types that it is counterintuitive and I've never been in a game that follows this. We've always played that if you're an Epic character you can take Epic feats.

Epic fighter feats are not on the list of bonus feats for a non-epic fighter.

The character levels feats chosen can be of any feat (epic or non-epic) that the character "meets the prerequisites" for.

The wording for wizard bonus feats (the only core spellcasting class that gets "bonus feats") is worded such that a non-epic wizard (but epic character) could indeed take epic feats as his wizard bonus feats. But these feats must also be of a metamagic or item creation feat. Most of the good feats specify neither so a non-epic wizard can't use his wizard bonus feats to take them.

Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:
At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.

Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Bonus Feats: At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a wizard gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery. The wizard must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The wizard is not limited to the categories of item creation feats, metamagic feats, or Spell Mastery when choosing these feats.

 

[Quartz]

Epic fighter feats are not on the list of bonus feats for a non-epic fighter.

Really? Looks like they are in the Epic part of the SRD. I wonder if you're getting mixed up between a 20th level fighter and a character with 20 levels taking levels in fighter? Remember that the Epic rules are an add-on, not part of the core, so wouldn't appear in the base class part of the SRD.

As I said, it makes no sense to require 20 levels. That would make a complete mockery of multiclassing and prestige classes.

 

[the Jester]

Really? Looks like they are in the Epic part of the SRD. I wonder if you're getting mixed up between a 20th level fighter and a character with 20 levels taking levels in fighter? Remember that the Epic rules are an add-on, not part of the core, so wouldn't appear in the base class part of the SRD.

As I said, it makes no sense to require 20 levels. That would make a complete mockery of multiclassing and prestige classes.

He's right. It calls that out in the ELH, iirc. Bonus feats from a class must come from the list for that class. Now, for his 21st, 24th, etc. level feats, he can take any feat (including epic feats) for which he qualifies. It's the bonus feats that are restricted.

 

[irdeggman]

Really? Looks like they are in the Epic part of the SRD. I wonder if you're getting mixed up between a 20th level fighter and a character with 20 levels taking levels in fighter? Remember that the Epic rules are an add-on, not part of the core, so wouldn't appear in the base class part of the SRD.

Absolutely positive.

The feats do not contain the extra text:

"Special: A Fighter may take this feat as one of his bonus fighter feats." As has been done in all of the other supplemental books.

Hence they are not added to the list of feats eligible to be taken with a fighter bonus feat.

They are specifically called out in the epic-fighter class bonus feat list.

As I said, it makes no sense to require 20 levels. That would make a complete mockery of multiclassing and prestige classes

No more so than requiring 4 levels to fighter to take specialization (there are some classes and Pr. classes that have specific allowances on this though).

The restrictions on gaining epic spellcasting are pretty steep too - so take a look at those.

And as I pointed out there are very few epic feats that a non-epic wizard can take with his non-epic level bonus feats too.

 

[Quartz]

Absolutely positive.

The feats do not contain the extra text:

"Special: A Fighter may take this feat as one of his bonus fighter feats." As has been done in all of the other supplemental books.

Here's what the SRD says:

Epic Fighter Bonus Feat List: Armor Skin, Combat Archery, Damage Reduction, Devastating Critical, Dire Charge, Distant Shot, Energy Resistance, Epic Endurance, Epic Leadership, Epic Prowess, Epic Toughness, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, Exceptional Deflection, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Manyshot, Improved Stunning Fist, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Infinite Deflection, Instant Reload, Legendary Commander, Legendary Rider, Legendary Wrestler, Overwhelming Critical, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Reflect Arrows, Spellcasting Harrier, Storm of Throws, Superior Initiative, Swarm of Arrows, Two-Weapon Rend, Uncanny Accuracy. In addition to the feats on this list, the fighter may treat any feat designated as a fighter bonus feat, but not listed here, as being on his or her bonus feat list.

So they do qualify as bonus fighter feats.

 

[Elethiomel]

So they do qualify as bonus fighter feats.

They qualify as "Epic Fighter" bonus feats, not "Fighter" bonus feats. Even if your character is epic, if they don't have 21 levels of Fighter then they don't have any levels as "Epic Fighter".

 

[irdeggman]

They qualify as "Epic Fighter" bonus feats, not "Fighter" bonus feats. Even if your character is epic, if they don't have 21 levels of Fighter then they don't have any levels as "Epic Fighter".

And an epic fighter may also choose any fighter bonus feat to add to that list.