Epic Combat Expertise...WTF?

[Egres]

Epic Combat Expertise
You have extraordinary talent at using your combat skill for defense.

Prerequisite: Int 19, Epic Prowess, Expertise, base attack bonus +21
Benefit: When you use the attack action or full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty equal to or less than one-half your base attack bonus (rounded down) on your attack and add the same number to your AC. The modifiers to attack rolls and AC last until your next turn. The bonus to your AC is a dodge bonus.

Improved Combat Expertise
You have mastered the art of defense in combat.

Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the Combat Expertise feat to improve your Armor Class, the number you subtract from your attack roll and add to your AC can be any number that does not exceed your base attack bonus.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Normal: With Combat Expertise, the number can be no greater than +5.

Am I missing something?

 

[Patlin]

They've downgraded a fairly significant number of epic feats. Looks like Epic Combat Expertise is obsolete.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Nope. ICE is extremely extremely potent in the hands of the right character (and nearly useless otherwise). On the other hand, ECE was extremely underpowered and could probably have been allowed with the reqs of ICE.

 

[Crothian]

What's epic combat expertise from? I've not seen that before.

 

[ThirdWizard]

ICE is broken and shouldn't have ever been made.

 

[Crothian]

ICE is broken and shouldn't have ever been made.

How is it "broken"?

 

[Rystil Arden]

How is it "broken"?

Basically, anyone who would ever want to use it will generally be able to use it to incredibly devastating effect. It depends on how often certain types of combat come up, however.

 

[rowport]

Basically, anyone who would ever want to use it will generally be able to use it to incredibly devastating effect. It depends on how often certain types of combat come up, however.

The very way you are parsing your answer implies that it is *not* "broken". It requires two feats, with a high-INT prereq (which is unusual for most Fighters), and will only be useful in limited circumstances- either against a low-AC BBEG or mooks.

Put another way: every frontline Fighter I have ever seen has Power Attack. In contrast, only a very few have Combat Expertise, and then only to qualify for Improved Trip. I have never seen a Fighter take ICE. So I *sincerely doubt* its brokenness.

 

[Crothian]

Basically, anyone who would ever want to use it will generally be able to use it to incredibly devastating effect. It depends on how often certain types of combat come up, however.

Since it improves AC, then are you saying that people who want to use will already have a high AC and this will just make them unhittable? THat's the only way I see it be devasting, but I relaly see that happening in high level fighting and by then saving throws are what characters need way more then AC. And what certain types of comabats are you talking about?

 

[Rystil Arden]

The very way you are parsing your answer implies that it is *not* "broken".

No, the way I am parsing my answer is based on the fact that I know people like to come in and snipe in these kinds of threads, and I don't feel like arguing this one *again*. If it wasn't deleted in the crash and you have the search function, you'll find another thread where this has already been hashed out.

Since it improves AC, then are you saying that people who want to use will already have a high AC and this will just make them unhittable? THat's the only way I see it be devasting, but I relaly see that happening in high level fighting and by then saving throws are what characters need way more then AC. And what certain types of comabats are you talking about?

That's the gist of it, but it isn't just the super high levels. Basically, a character can transform any AC advantage at all into a impregnable advantage against melee opponents. It still doesn't protect against saves, admittedly, but it is just one feat and that isn't its job--it does its job with brutal efficiency. You get something else to deal with saves. Basically, when facing a big melee opponent, you can turn any advantage in your respective hit chance into a sure thing.

A more extreme example of its power is fighting against a group of lower-level fighters.

It also helps against casters who rely on Touch attacks for spells with no save.