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Epic Experiences and Thoughts

Legends of Avadnu is an awesome PDF that introduces some good and very flavorful Epic monsters, and also introduces a great temple, the Bygone Creature. It's a template to take 20HD+ creatures and make them weaker 'echoes' of the original creature, lowering it's CR by a good margin. It's a great way to throw a weakened version of an Epic creature at the players. The powers of the creature actually fade (including death from its abilities) after a period of time.

Frankly, I think it's brilliant, especially since it's the first template I've seen to weaken a creature, not strengthen it.
 

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WizarDru said:
Second, make sure that hints and tidbits of powerful beings are noticed, mentioned or the effects of seen. Seeing the devastation caused by a Tarrasque or Devastation Beetle at 5th level will help set the stage far in the future for such an encounter.
I daresay its good for a "going to become Epic at some point" campaign if the DM occasionally does more than just drop hints about the presence of creatures and NPCs that can be classified as Epic.

For example, IMFRC the characters spent levels 4-11 in Cormyr during its recent war, where they fought against Nalavara (Epic), her Ghazneths (Epic), her advanced goblinoid minions and orcish armies.

Conventional DM wisdom says you don't pit your players against unbeatable foes. However, with trusting players and good planning it's quite possible to build exciting and memorable scenarios where the characters don't have to directly confront Epic foes, only thwart them in some way (such as finding ways to fend of Nalavara long enough for both King Azoun and the last of his expeditionary army to safely enter Arabel) or avoid them on the way to some other important goal (such as finding the means to move swiftly through the King's Forrest on the way to a portal that leads to Anaorach while avoiding detection by the unkillable, magic sniffing Ghazneth in hot pursuit and its orcish minions swarming the wood--all in the hope of quickly finding and recovering Netherese artifacts for use against Cormyr's enemies in the war).

FWIW my players did get a chance to battle one Ghazneth on their return trip to Cormyr. They (briefly) got to use the Sphere of Annihilation they recovered, which evened things up a bit.

Of course, YMMV.

J. Grenemyer
 
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I just actually started a thread about this, but on reflection it merits repeating in this one.

The epic party in my campaign last night decided, pretty much on the spur of the moment, to go wake up a sleeping dragon that's been a feature on the map since the campaign began and kill it (which they did in two rounds). This was a side quest while they debated what to do with all the dangling plot threads facing them. Not too long ago they wiped out a pit fiend who was another 'map feature' since the beginning of the campaign (almost 300 years game time and about 12 years real time).

Epic pcs change the campaign world in permanent, indelible ways. Something to be very conscious of before starting an epic campaign.

I like it, but I can understand why some people wouldn't.
 

A corrolary to this: don't plot to tightly at higher level and into Epic, and if you must, get input from your players on what their next immediate goals are. Epic characters can pop-off across the world on a whim, and rain death on whole kingdoms after discussing it for twenty minutes. Don't overprepare, but always pack your toothbrush. :)
 

the Jester said:
Ahhh, I've been wondering how long it would be until someone brought up SHARK-style campaigning!

My biggest problem with making all the npcs 8th level and whatnot is that you remove the formidableness of monsters.

SHARK and I add class levels to the monsters. Epic PCs don't fight standard MM Fire Giants. They fight squads of 16th Fighter Fire Giants complete with all the magical gear and weaponry that comes with being 16th level. ;)
 

eris404 said:
Thank you all for the great advice and ideas - I have a lot to think about and create. I'm leaning towards creating an "expanding world" campaign (as described by Wizardru), because that's the style that appeals to me the most right now. I love the idea of introducing certain epic elements early in the campaign, because I know the players in my group would eat it up.

Just out of curiosity, for those who have played in epic campaigns, did you set a level limit or did you just keep going until you lost interest? I've been thinking about having the metaplot (and campaign itself) end around 25th level, but I wonder if I'm losing out on fun stuff by doing that.

On a side note, what happened to Shark anyway? I don't mean to be nosy, so if it was a personal thing, just tell me to mind my own business. I ask because he is referenced a lot and it seems a lot of people miss him.

SHARK is still around. I just saw him a few weeks ago when we went to So Cal Gen Con together. :)

He is also a full time college student and recently bought a house with his wife. He spends a lot of time taking care of his young nieces and nephews too. Basically his plate is too full to come online. He has also had some computer problems with viruses and hasn't had the time or the money to deal with it. So he hasn't been able to really get online in a long time.
 

WizarDru said:
"Shark"-style Epic play

For those unfamiliar with Shark (a poster who's participation is missed here) and his campaign, it is a game of D&D turned up to 11, as they say. Mid to high-level commoners are normal, and epic PCs are relatively commonplace. However, everything is ratcheted up. While there are Ftr20/Mnk20 PCs, they're fighting an army of Winterwights. Yes, I said an ARMY. Imagine ancient empires of super-powered beings laying down death on the battlefield, where teams of Gloom assassins are sent to hunt people down, and Umbral blots are standard equipment for a siege. Don't confuse this with purely tactical power-gaming, however...Shark's world was deep and interesting. But it was high-magic, high-power 'to the wall' stuff, such that it would make Exalted blush, I think.

Couldn't have put it any better! Great description, WizarDru! :)
 

Absolutely terrific thread.

We just recently completed an Epic campaign. We use the Forgotten Realms, and had mulitple campaigns worth of characters who were played up to 20th level, that the players could choose from. We've run about 10 campaigns in our version of the Forgotten Realms, dating back to the original boxed set coming out (so about 15 or 16 years). One of the great things about going Epic, for the first time, with this group was the opportunity to ressurrect a few of your favorite "old characters". We had a mix of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition campaign characters, some of which took a little converting. So, a great deal of the fun from the get-go was to get this group of the world's "legends" together, and put them into some fun and interesting new developments.

I know I'm not necessarily usual in this regard, but I have an aversion to a couple of types of plots: time travel and plane travel. I like the concept of there being other planes out there, but I don't want that to be the core plot. I don't like time travel at all, and I want the planar stuff to truly be beyond the capabilities of mortals. Including epic ones. So, putting the campaign together, I did a little field research on the FR. Will there be enough in the core supplements to challenge them? I found 164 epic level NPC's. Ok, this shouldn't be a problem. There were appoximately 65mm people identified in the main continent of the Forgotten Realms. So, just using a basic statistical model, to say that 80% of the world is a 1st level commoner, that still left 13mm who were better than 1st. Probably half of that would be above 5th level (6mm), and half that above 10th level (3mm). That's still a boatload of people. I found this to provide me with plenty of room for opportunity, challenges, and the ability to expand (without really negatively impacting the believability).

Immediately, it became evident that there were some balance concerns with the epic feats. One feat lets you instantly kill anything you hit, and another one gives you an additional +1 to hit... Hmmm. We went with it, anyway, and it seemed to work out for the most part. We used some of our experiences from playing epic in Neverwinter Nights to address things we knew would be issues. Devastating Critical, Automatic Quicken, and Improved Metamagic. This was immediately what the players were drawn towards. In addition, if players with this level of resources (GP Wealth) truly was given free reign to build or select their own magic items, it became immediately evident that there are some high end items that are overwhelming. The books that add to stats, vorpal, sunblades, ghost touch weapon and a ring of blinking, heavy fortification, Major Displacement, Spell Turning, and in the FR...items of that grant Mind Blank, such as a Cowl of Warding. In addition, anything that would grant DR/ER was always welcome. These were at the same times, must haves, and completely broken, particulalry in combination with each other.

The game was fun to play. People loved to push the story of their "legendary" retired heroes. They loved to flex their muscle and use all of their incredible powers, abilites, and items. They were able to be challenged, on a number of levels. In many instances (from 20th - 25th), it worked very well to mix in Epic only in small doses. Creatures from the MM were plenty challenging, particularly if you threw mulitple together. One of the most challenging fights the players fought was a group of dragons (I belive it was 10 dragons on 5 players, at around 24th level). Making it a 24 ECL, the dragons would be about CR18 (what would appear individually as total weaklings to the party, and their capabilities). It's safe to say it didn't end up that way, at all.

By 30th level, the party was extremely powerful. Epic villians were required, almost exclusively. That's when things really fell apart. Many of the epic villians, in order to be able to survive, were forced to rely heavily on tremendous immunities, and multiple layers of defenses. This was not only cumbersome to DM, but it also truly began to feel like the players were losing their sense of "greatness". The players were forced to spend multiple rounds just finding out what could affect a creature, then beating it senseless with whatever that was...since your ability/spell/weapon would only work 10% - 25% of the time at best anyway. We also ran out of good things to get. The players had fundamentally maxed out their character's abilities by this level, using the core Epic rules.

Some other things that were painfully missing, and much needed for our epic game:
1) A good mass combat system, I bought them all, but ended up using my own houserules to dramatically simplify and fit the campaign. At epic levels, this is certainly a must have.
2) A good resource management system at a "kingdom" or "country" level. This is really what most of the campaign was about. The interplay between the many different power brokers at work in the Realms. The give and take, the move and counter move. Etc. This really could be it's own separate game (Age of Empires), but would be insanely cool if it could work in players' abilities and actions into it.
3) Effective countermeasures...there a number of spells and abilities from 12th to 20th level, that appear, but don't have effective counter measures built into the game, but they clearly should. To name a few...blink, displacement, anti-magic shell, wall of force, time stop, commune, mordenkainen's disjunction, true sight, Greater Teleport, Shapechange, Mass Suggestion, Etherealness (Ethereal Travel), and AoE damage spells on armies. This is a list off the top of my head, I'm certain it could be expanded.

Our group did not even consider/touch epic spellcasting.
Our group does use expedited experience/level gaining.
 

Hope this isn't too off topic but I decided not to go Epic -- here why

I
I use the power components varient for magic items -- this made epic spells easy -- just gather the material stuff and the thaum (materia if you like) and go -- I was tempted at least until I look at the consequences of some of the spells


Look at there two spells from the SRD (insert OGL here as needed)

Dire Winter
Evocation [Cold]
Spellcraft DC: 319
Components: V, S , X P
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 1,000 ft.
Area: 1,000-ft.-radius emanation
Duration: 20 hours
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: None
To Develop: 2,871,000 gp; 58 days; 114,840 XP. Seed: energy (emanate 2d6 cold in 10-ft. radius) (DC 19). Factor: 100 times increase in base area (+400 DC). Mitigating factor: burn 10,000 XP (–100 DC).
The creature or object targeted emanates bitter cold to a radius of 1,000 feet for 20 hours. The emanated cold deals 2d6 points of damage per round against unprotected creatures (the target is susceptible if not magically protected or otherwise resistant to the energy). The intense cold freezes water out of the air, causing constant snowfall and wind. The snow and wind produce a blizzard effect within the area.
XP Cost: 10,000 XP.


and worse

Rain of Fire
Evocation [Fire]
Spellcraft DC: 50
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 0 ft.
Area: 2-mile-radius emanation
Duration: 20 hours
Saving Throw: Reflex negates (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 450,000 gp; 9 days; 18,000 XP. Seeds: energy (fire) (DC 19), energy (weather) (DC 19). Factor: change rain to wisps of flame (ad hoc +12 DC).
This spell summons a swirling thunderstorm that rains fire rather than raindrops down on the character and everything within a two-mile radius of him or her. Everything caught unprotected or unsheltered in the flaming deluge takes 1 point of fire damage each round. A successful Reflex save results in no damage, but the save must be repeated each round. Unless the ground is exceedingly damp, all vegetation is eventually blackened and destroyed, leaving behind a barren wasteland similar to the aftermath of a grass or forest fire. The fiery storm is stationary and persists even if the caster leaves.


10 wizards with that spell could kill a county in a matter of days -

Its basically a D&D nuke and since it can't be used why introduce it?

Also socially Epic adventures don't fit-- there isn't much planar travel 1st and my game world is fairly low monster and moderate level (typically regular people are at most 7th with elites going as high as 16th for near legends)

nothing in the Epic book would fit. Now there are Epic things out there (the rulers of the seasons, some dragons and demons, voidspawn ) and Epic characters as follows

no epic divine casters current on the world (the gods haven't needed any) except one Ranger , 5 epic psions (the Council of 5) 60 odd sorcerers and wizards, 2 rogues (1 Thief and one assasin) and Two Fighters (a General type and The Weaponsmaster) but they are the game terms living legends or in the case of the spellcasters -- nukes

Between my world building qualms, my unwillingness to alter rules and the fact I could make it fun for my players I decided not to go epic

heck most of the players (and the .alt DM) are still in 2e mode and aren't comfortable above 13th or so -- more the pity as high level D&D can be fun
 

My 3.0 game that's been running since, well, since 3.0 came out has just hit 18. We've been prepping for Epic and run several Epic one-shots to test stuff. We decided that Epic spells are something for 35+ level characters. Epic casters switch to lots of metamagic and group harassment spells (mage dings eight guys for 30 each while the fighter does 250 to one target).

I didn't have any real problem with CRs but that could be me; I've got a good handle on how my players do things. I've been using epic skill DCs to determine grades of success when necessary, though I think some of the "climb on air" stuff is just totally BS and needs to at least be a feat. I'm tempted to make some things special and require Epic Spell Focus for them to work.

One house rule I've already declared is that skill levels can be "re-arranged" so that a 20 fighter/20 wizard will have the same BAB as a 20 wizard/20 fighter. Of course, I'm saying that the saves goes along with it so there will be sweet spots. Pre-req classes must be included for PrCs to be included so an Wiz10/fighter10/Edlritch knigh 10 has to have some sub-epic wizard levels.

At this point I'm toying with the simple idea of extending the spell progression automatically given the generally low effect of most spells and not using the weird "Bonus Epic Spells" table. I might slow it down to half normal which would allow for additional metamagical room and let those who want extra spells to take the Improved Capacity feat.
It still runs into the insane save issue where you expect saves to be made except on botches and save-or-dies become so appealing. I'm hoping I can make the encounters plot-relevant without resorting to many truly epic monsters; I prefer to level monsters instead.

Epic item costs are insane and IMC there are so few potential epic casters that there's no real economy for it. I'm thinking I might just extend the magic item cost table out and reduce the PC cash expectations. Haven't crunched the numbers yet though.
 

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