Epic Experiences and Thoughts

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Does anyone have advice specifically for planning an "epic" campaign from 1st level?

My quick and dirty advice: A DM needs to start by lining up enough adventures to more or less cover levels 1-25, and then organize those adventures around a common theme or metaplot that links them together. The DM can then break down the adventures into groups consisting of three or four major interrelated plot lines that the PC's will uncover and interact with as play progresses.

The DM should plan for the PCs to defeat a BBEG linked to one of the plot lines on or about level 20, and should also work to lay the groundwork for the other story lines by establishing the presence other BBEGs and organizations at various points along the campaign.

The DM should save his metaplot for when the PCs turn Epic, and also use this opportunity to give the PCs a glimpse at the full tapestry of interrelated mysteries that have been unfolding over the course of the campaign.

Finally, Dragon magazine has been a huge boon for my campaign because it provided me with three superb Epic Level Adventures to point my campaign to from early on. These adventures have got me covered adventure-wise from levels 21-25. Even better: These Epic adventures also indirectly provided some good seed ideas on how to tie in lower level adventures into a single campaign metaplot.

 

[GrayIguana]

Maybe

Does anyone have advice specifically for planning an "epic" campaign from 1st level?

I'm liking this thread as well. I have two campaigns so far in my campaign world. From the beginning, I've had in mind that the character's could be going up against "Epic" things. I have a giant kingdom which features an army of well-equiped giants, many of which have levels of fighter or cleric. The average giant (cloud) is played right from the MM. Leaders have levels in something. I also have places that are rules by demi-god like beings, god-kings if you will. If the party ever gets to that level, they can attempt to take one out.

My first campaign fizzled out though as we reached 18th level. This was partly due to the fact that the characters no longer had a need to stay together. Each PC had his own interests developed that he/she wanted to pursue. (I'm still working on a way to bring them back together.)

The current campaign has been played since 3rd level and the PCs are now about 12th level. In a year (real-time), they may be nearing epic levels, and I have a rough outline of the plot that will take them there. If they get there, they will be assigned to confronting one of the demi-gods and bringing him to justice. I've put this being at about 25th level, so I'm guessing that they won't be able to take this one on until 21st level.

As for the "SHARK" like campaigns. I also do this to a degree. I try to imply that my world is tough. The average soldier is at least 2nd and may be 4th. I don't have orcs in my world. Replace those with reptilians and most of those have a level in something. Dire animals are more the norm, etc.

I'm excited to reach an epic level game and have the PCs actually take on world changing actions. We'll see.

 

[WizarDru]

There are, as mentioned, several different approaches to make Epic level play work. By no means is there a right way and a wrong way, any more than there is a right and wrong way to play D&D itself. There are, however, some guidelines to consider.

1. "Shark"-style Epic play. For those unfamiliar with Shark (a poster who's participation is missed here) and his campaign, it is a game of D&D turned up to 11, as they say. Mid to high-level commoners are normal, and epic PCs are relatively commonplace. However, everything is ratcheted up. While there are Ftr20/Mnk20 PCs, they're fighting an army of Winterwights. Yes, I said an ARMY. Imagine ancient empires of super-powered beings laying down death on the battlefield, where teams of Gloom assassins are sent to hunt people down, and Umbral blots are standard equipment for a siege. Don't confuse this with purely tactical power-gaming, however...Shark's world was deep and interesting. But it was high-magic, high-power 'to the wall' stuff, such that it would make Exalted blush, I think.
2. 20-Plus Gaming. The classic, somewhat drab ELH approach. PCs are simply beings who've crossed the threshold past 20th level, and are slowly leveling up. To the 1st level commoner, there isn't much difference between Archmagus X and Supreme Archmagus Y...they're both closer to gods than men, and frankly after you pass a certain threshold, it makes no difference to them. The PCs somehow stumble across higher level monsters and villains, hopefully that have been introduced in some capacity before.
3. The Expanding World. This is the 'Welcome to the Big Leagues' approach. This can either be a Matrix-like revelation of what reality is truly like, or it could be a X-files-ish discovery of the truth of your gameworld. The PCs knew that the BBEG was powerful, but they had no idea that he was actually a servant of even greater forces. The PCs must rise to the challenge, and advance to a new level to face their foes.

So, how do you set up a campaign to scale to Epic from 1st level? Well, that depends, obviously, on your approach. There are several things you can do. The first is to envision the senior powers in the world as Epic beings, and making sure the PCs know how far beyond normal humans these beings are. A normal king? No, a Dragon King! A high priest? No, a Living Saint! Hand in hand with this is figuring out why these beings don't dominate every aspect of the campaign...or if they do, how the players can operate under such conditions and still make meaningful choices. Perhaps they are being molded by such beings. Perhaps they are the subjects of a delicate and arcane prophecy. Perhaps internal politics and religious belief are issues. Never underestimate social aspects and their power to restrict even the most powerful of beings. One need only look at Sepulchrave's Story Hour for a prime example of this. Eadric the Paladin is far more powerful than his liege, his king or the chief of his religion...but it is social convention that carries the day...at least until he becomes the Ahma and then different conventions guide him, still.

Second, make sure that hints and tidbits of powerful beings are noticed, mentioned or the effects of seen. Seeing the devastation caused by a Tarrasque or Devastation Beetle at 5th level will help set the stage far in the future for such an encounter. Have the fickle hands of fate show themselves occasionally, with powerful being striding on camera for a cameo, most likely ignoring the PCs. For example, when summoned to see the King on a trivial matter, Mordankanien is leaving as the players are arriving. Let them know, in a subtle or direct way, that the Epic is all about them, often unseen but not invisible.

Third, make references to grand quests or supreme villains, either by legend or common knowledge, that are clearly Epic. "Oh, aye...up the hill there a ways is the tomb of the Reptile God King. That's where the great hero Golvar met 'is end, it is. Ya know, the fella' what killed the Lord o' the Liches? That bloke. Woke the old beast, and it swallowed them all, whole, and then lopped off the top o' that mountain over there. Yea, over there...the PLATEAU, aye. Took fifty men with 'im, including my da'. None of 'em came back. Only a fool'd go up there, now. You ain't a fool, are ya?"

How's that for starters?

 

[eris404]

Thank you all for the great advice and ideas - I have a lot to think about and create. I'm leaning towards creating an "expanding world" campaign (as described by Wizardru), because that's the style that appeals to me the most right now. I love the idea of introducing certain epic elements early in the campaign, because I know the players in my group would eat it up.

Just out of curiosity, for those who have played in epic campaigns, did you set a level limit or did you just keep going until you lost interest? I've been thinking about having the metaplot (and campaign itself) end around 25th level, but I wonder if I'm losing out on fun stuff by doing that.

On a side note, what happened to Shark anyway? I don't mean to be nosy, so if it was a personal thing, just tell me to mind my own business. I ask because he is referenced a lot and it seems a lot of people miss him.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I'm going to hijack the thread for a quick question that's sort of off topic. So if in your campaign you start the world ready for epic levels complete with high level commoners and such, where do your characters start? Truthfully if a common soldier is an 8th level character, the common orc raider should also be 8th level. What does a 1st level character fight/ do? How do you start from first level and run epic by creating the world to accomadate epic levels like that without taking from the reality of the game at lower levels?

I can see your points about people being leveled, but the common soldier being low level makes since to me. Eighth level seems way out of line... the common soldier could slay 3 ogres and not break a sweat? or a troll? They have some feats to work with but more importantly they are trained in Every Martial - Simple Weapon, and all Armors and Shield, which is no small feat. As for them being stronger than your average joe or more alert, their hit points and ranks are more than enough to show that aspect of a soldier compared to a commoner. For crafts and professions, as noted before you forget about the taking 10 ability, which leads huge amounts to the realism of the game. I once played in a game like this where every soldier was like 10th level, and every orc about 15th level... I couldn't help but ask why the orcs haven't taken over the world and if we were supposed to level off squirrels? It doesn't seem real to assume that every soldier or orc raider, or whatever has survived about a hundred fights (average 13 per level as the system was created).

I'm going to hijack the thread for a quick question that's sort of off topic. So if in your campaign you start the world ready for epic levels complete with high level commoners and such, where do your characters start?

The characters start either as young adolescents with no class levels (EL 1), as rookie adventurers or soldiers or scholars or what not (EL 4) or as typical troops (EL 8). It depends on where you want to start the game and whether you want the PCs to be immediately thrust into the limelight.

Truthfully if a common soldier is an 8th level character, the common orc raider should also be 8th level. What does a 1st level character fight/ do? How do you start from first level and run epic by creating the world to accomadate epic levels like that without taking from the reality of the game at lower levels?

A 1st-level character is basically about 13 years old, with no life experience and no serious combat under his belt. He's probably going to fight nuisance monsters (carrion crawlers, some wild animals) or youths of other races (juvenile orcs on their first human-hunt). Or, he does things that don't involve serious fighting, like exploring a (truly) abandoned ruin in the hills outside of town. Or, for that matter, he enters service in a class-teaching organization like the local militia (Fighter, Ranger and Rogue), tribal warrior caste (Barbarian and Ranger), magic academy (Wizard), pickpocket gang (Rogue) or religious order (Cleric, Druid and Paladin).

I can see your points about people being leveled, but the common soldier being low level makes since to me. Eighth level seems way out of line... the common soldier could slay 3 ogres and not break a sweat? or a troll?

The common soldier could slay 3 ogre teens (CR 2 each) and not break a sweat. Against a typical ogre WARRIOR (an 8th-level barbarian), he's going to get his rear handed to him more often than not; specifically, about as often as a 1st-level fighter against a levelless ogre.

Even an adolescent troll can kill a common soldier who wasn't prepared for its regeneration. A seasoned troll who has experienced the brutal violence of trollish life will probably be a higher level than his ogre or human counterparts - remember, trolls can literally rip each other to bits in "training."

They have some feats to work with but more importantly they are trained in Every Martial - Simple Weapon, and all Armors and Shield, which is no small feat.

Just like every 1st-level fighter, barbarian, ranger and paladin? :\ This is a problem with Martial Weapon Proficiency, not with high-level commoners.
Heck, it makes some degree of sense. Roman soldiers trained with their gladii and several types of spears, as well as varying levels of armor, and most were probably at least passably familiar with the cavalry sword (spatha, I believe?) and sling. Knights learned sword, axe, lance, spear and mace, basically all the martial weapons except ranged weapons, and also grappling. Samurai trained with two types of sword, lance, bow, unarmed combat, and usually some other secondary weapons. Modern soldiers learn to use assault rifles, pistols, bayonets, grenades and various types of heavy weaponry.

I once played in a game like this where every soldier was like 10th level, and every orc about 15th level... I couldn't help but ask why the orcs haven't taken over the world and if we were supposed to level off squirrels? It doesn't seem real to assume that every soldier or orc raider, or whatever has survived about a hundred fights (average 13 per level as the system was created).

If you had to fight to level, I would agree with you. But you don't - or, at least, shouldn't. Training alone should account for your first few levels, and low-level characters thrust into danger should either gang up on a few veteran opponents (four 4th-level PCs swarm a lone orc raider, CR 9), hunt up weak animal-like creatures, or fight other young'uns.

I'll also go out on a limb and suggest that most, though not all, already-Epic games use fast levelling.

 

[the Jester]

I'll also go out on a limb and suggest that most, though not all, already-Epic games use fast levelling.

This is an intersting assertion. Why do you believe this? I've only played in one epic game and run one epic game, and one of them (created characters at 21st, I'm about to turn 23) we do level relatively quickly. The other one- the one I run, where we started at first level and are now in low-epic levels- I actually award less than standard xp (prolly works out to around 70% of standard).

 

[RichGreen]

my epic experiences

Hi,

This is an interesting thread. I've experienced epic play as a player and DM. I ran Bastion of Broken Souls for a party of PCs created at 17th-18th level for that adventure. When it finished the PCs were 21st and one of the players took over as DM, I created a 21st level character, and we played an epic adventure he ran which involved interplanar travel and being constantly attacked day and night as we sought to "redeem" a mysterious child that we had rescued from a githzerai monastery on Limbo. After this adventure, I ran one where the PCs needed to sneak into Demogorgon's fortress, Abysm, and retrieve the Sceptre of Good and the Book of Wee Jas (both of which Demogorgon had corrupted). Finally, Theo DM'd again, luring all the PCs to the Plane of Mirrors where we ended up fighting evil doubles of ourselves. The game ended when the evil twin of the party wizard cast Mordenkainen's disjunction on us, destroying thousands of gp worth of our kit. He finished us off pretty easily after that!

As others have pointed out, it's a bit odd creating 20 levels of backstory and I'm not sure feat, magic item etc choices made in three hours of character generation are as good as the ones you would make over a couple of years of gameplay. One player came up with a good history for his character and often did entertaining if silly things so he provided a lot of the plot hooks.

Overall it was fun if exhausting coming up with those very long stat blocks.

Cheers


Richard

PS we didn't use too many epic monsters -- thorciasid, hunefer, black slaad, white slaad, adamantine golem. Mostly I added lots of character levels to demons, ixitxachitl etc.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

This is an intersting assertion. Why do you believe this? I've only played in one epic game and run one epic game, and one of them (created characters at 21st, I'm about to turn 23) we do level relatively quickly. The other one- the one I run, where we started at first level and are now in low-epic levels- I actually award less than standard xp (prolly works out to around 70% of standard).

I said I was going out on a limb.

In my experience, which is partly skewed by my preference for fast levelling, high-power-level campaigns feature quick experience gain. Also, part of the appeal of high-powered campaigns is the ability to acrue lots of interesting abilities (feats, mostly), so it seemed a natural fit.

However, I couldn't give you any data to back that up. It could be completely off-base.

 

[andargor]

Epic Spellcasting

I just spotted this thread. Our group recently went epic and, like most people it seems, we were no satisfied with the epic spellcasting rules.

I have a proposed approach in this thread, but I also see that others have made proposals as well.

I will probably take a look at UK's Grimoire when it comes out, but could I have links to other variants (like Trainz')?

Andargor

 

[Trainz]

I just spotted this thread. Our group recently went epic and, like most people it seems, we were no satisfied with the epic spellcasting rules.

I have a proposed approach in this thread, but I also see that others have made proposals as well.

I will probably take a look at UK's Grimoire when it comes out, but could I have links to other variants (like Trainz')?

Andargor

I've also created (with the generous feedback and help of ENworlders) an Epic template. It's weaker than Paragon, but much quicker to apply. I know it belongs in house rule, but I thought it would be morce convenient and target the interested parties more if I just paste it right here:

Epic Template:

Hit Points: Double the creature's hit points and add 100.
Initiative: increase by +10 (+5 dex, +5 insight)
Speed: Double all movement rates
AC: increase by +15 (+5 dex, +5 insight, +5 natural armor)
Base attack: increase attacks and damage by +15 (+5 strength, +10 luck)
Full attack: increase attacks and damage by +15 (+5 strength, +10 luck)
(1/2 strength bonus for off-hand attacks, 1 1/2 bonus for two-handed attacks)
Special attacks: +10 insight bonus on special attacks saving throw, special attacks do double damage.
Special qualities: Base creature plus DR 5/epic, spell resistance equals base creature CR plus 15 or use base creature +10 (whichever is greater), fast healing 5, elemental resistance 5 (all elements).
Spell-like abilities: +10 epic bonus to caster level, add +10 to Saving Throw DC’s (+5 insight, +5 due to higher ability scores). Creature gains greater dispel magic, fly and see invisibility at will. Creatures without a caster level use their hit dice +10.
Saves: Add 10 to all saves (+5 insight, +5 from ability modifiers)
Abilities: Add 10 to all ability scores. (Don't recalculate other values that are based on ability scores).
Skills: +10 to all skills (+5 insight, +5 due to ability modifiers)
Feats: Creature gains three of the following (some may be taken more than once- see feat descriptions): Automatic Quicken Spell, Automatic Quicken Spell-like Ability, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dire Charge, Great Cleave, Mobility, Power Attack.
Challenge Rating: Base creature +10

Note regarding special qualities: If a creature already has Damage Resistance, add epic to what is needed to overcome it, but do not otherwise change it. If they have fast healing, increase its value by 5. If they have energy resistance, increase the resistance by 5.