Epic Experiences and Thoughts

[Wrahn]

My understanding of Epic Spellcasting is that it is not intended for 21st level characters, the cost versus effect are way out of balance.

But reach 30th level, then things begin to get more workable. The rules themselves are not overly difficult to use (I consider the Hero System the greatest single game system in existence though) it is definitely open to abuse.

I do not like the Epic casting as it is written for various reasons, mostly I think they are schizophrenic. It tries to be too many things at once and one of the things it tries to be and shouldn’t is the combat route for spell casters. There are a lot of very effective options for a spell caster in the ELH.

In my not so humble opinion, Epic spell casting should be just that, Epic. I am talking about the rituals that level mountains, the enchantments that animate an army of Terra Cotta warriors. Spells that shake the world and the vehicles for epic stories. If characters want to wander down those paths, that is when they should buy epic spell casting and be prepared to spend considerable resources to do so.

So on that level, I think the Epic level spellcasting has the right idea. It is the other half of the epic spell casting I think has no place there, the Hellball for example. I think that should fall better into the realm of “normal” spell casting. It is nothing but an overgrown Meteor Swarm.

 

[drnuncheon]

The basic problem (imo) is the assumption that epic characters have enough money to destabilize the world economy... in cash!

Doesn't necessarily have to be cash - they could be trading magic items, or even services. In fact, that last leads to more adventures, which can only be a good thing...

J

 

[the Jester]

My biggest issue with Epic play is the power creep of the recent "Complete" books. Many of the feats in these books are superior to Epic versions of the similar feat. Mage Slayer / Spellcaster Harrier comes to mind.

I haven't had any rules issues or game-breakage yet, but I agree with Dragon Mage's comment above. The epic rules should set the bar for 'standard'-level feats; that is, they should determine how powerful the standard feats can get. That's why I ban Mage Slayer; one of the epic pcs imc has Spellcasting Harrier, and even with epic adversaries, I find my villains failing their cast defensively checks (note that the 3.5 revision makes SH inflict a -1/2 levels on Concentration checks to cast defensively).

***

My main issue, as I said above, is the resource issue. drnuncheon, I try to use favors and the like as part of the party's 'wealth', but it's sometimes hard to 'rate' favors in monetary terms. Then again, I've never been known for being a slave to the wealth by levels guidelines....

Still, sometimes at these levels you really need your stuff. After the party was tpk'ed and brought back (planning ahead is a great idea when you're an epic party) with no stuff, for about six games I increased the xp the pcs would receive for overcoming a monster; they had +1 gear, for the most part!

 

[Trainz]

The cash at epic becomes ludicrous, and we only used the favor notes to deal with it. Basically, it was paper money.

In all the epic games I DM'ed, Union was always an integral part; I had no choice. The magnitude of the money and items is such that you need such a place. Union also served as a comparison bar for the players; when they walked in it, they didn't feel like they could boss around the citizens, it kept them on their toes: there's always a bigger fish.

As WizarDru said, I wouldn't touch the Epic Spellcasting rules with a 10' pole. I created my own quick and easy system, and it's been playtested enough to determine that it's impressive but not overpowered.

The monsters: indeed, after CR 30 you are SOL. A few things I did to fix this is;

A- use the paragon template
B- use the epic template (a house rule of mine)
C- use the monster hit dice advancment rules
D- add class levels to critters

For example, I created a mega pit-fiend (about CR 45 IIRC) using the hit-dice advancment rules, and I added 20 fighter levels on fire giants...

In one of my three epic games, it finished at level 57 for the PC. His last encounters were Hecatoncheires (CR 57) and an advanced Elder Titan (CR 60).

At that point I told him "That's it. You busted my books. Next campaign...".

 

[Shemeska]

I started my PCs out somewhere around level 10 or thereabouts and they're currently at level 27.

There was a minor period of transition once they hit level 21, but nothing huge, and it's largely stayed stable in the levels gained since then. But then again I don't micromanage the numbers and I don't adhere exactly to the RAW, just when I deviate from them I'm fair and consistent about it. If something is cool but impossible by the numbers, coolness wins out everytime.

Since they hit epic levels there has honestly been less and less combat, but those that have occured have been major, skin of the teeth, sort of fights such as a Baernaloth, a fragment of a god, etc etc.

I think it's important to keep in mind in a game that even once you're past level 21 that the planes/universe/multiverse are still infinite and full of wonders and terrors. Make sure the PCs don't get big headed about it and think that they can do everything and 'win' the game for instance. There's still things out there at any level that could squish you like a bug, and just because you hit level 21 doesn't mean you can don a red cape, wear an S on your chest, and fly faster than a speeding bullet.

And numerical power for PCs still doesn't always help. Take for instance the [booming voice]EPIC[/booming voice] task of ending the Blood War by yourself, something that has been boasted about on the WotC epic boards before. Sure you might be able to kill some minor archfiend, but what about the millions of fiends under him. If it's something the other fiends haven't done since the beginning of time, nor the celestials, nor the gods themselves, don't you think you're getting a bit of an ego thinking that you, by yourself, can directly change the course of every event in the multiverse? You can swing balances and influence the course of events, but you can't direct them by force of will (and dice) alone. I think that needs to be grounded in any Epic game or else the game loses its magic, its mystery, and its wonder.

It's like how any difficult video game loses its appeal utterly after the first time you fall into the temptation to use the cheat codes. Keep it challanging and keep it grounded in what I said above and it retains that sense of wonder and challange, otherwise you simply expect to win the game and its no longer fun.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I have the ELH and I have used it. That said, I don't like the way Epic level play is handled.

IMO, the transition from 20th to 21st level should be a slope like the transition from 19th to 20th. With the ELH, it isn't. It is a plateau. At 20th level, a character can swim across a river or lake adequately. Above 20th, with the right feat, the epic character can swim up Angel Falls. The problem is one of going from a adequate swimmer at 20th to a doing the impossible swimming stunt at level 21. There is little or no incremental increase.

In short, I'll just disagree with this. This is the sort of situation that should only crop up if the DM just goes out and buys the ELH when his PCs hit 21st level. "Epic" skill uses and other aspects of play should be found earlier than 20th level.

Having played both (ELH and Arcana Evolved), I find the AE approach to levels above 20th to be more intuitive (it uses the same progression concept that one experiences from 1st to 20th level), less disruptive (you don't have to learn 'another' rule system that the ELH represents), and seamless (there is not a jump in power level from normal to epic play that the ELH represents).

Given what I've heard about AE, and what I've experienced from AU (I use the AU magic system and several other good bits IMC), I can well believe this is true! I'm excited for some alt.epic rules, and I'm sure they'll be well-done. Quite jealous that you got to playtest them...

Back to topic:

1) Style of play. I think TheBadElf hit it on the head: Epic (or even near-epic) D&D play stylistically resembles JLA or the Authority much more than it does LotR or Conan. Expect even complex and multi-stage adventure scenarios to be completed in mere days or even hours of game time. Use action-packed framing with MTV-style cuts from scene to scene, limit description to relevant details, and assume that the environment, buildings, traps, and even mooks will be largely there for flavor unless they are exceptional in the extreme (different gravity and time traits, etc.). Make the PCs use those teleportation and divination abilities! IMC, I generally pitch combats to consume 50% or more of the party's resources; if I were to go with the standard 20-30% of a CR = EPL encounter, they'd just teleport, plane shift, or even astrally project home, heal up, regain spells, and head back in. Combats ideally should be composed as one-per-game-session set pieces where the PCs have to let fly with all their abilities or die horribly. Evoking feelings of wonder, dread, and menace becomes very important at these levels, since combat is such an all-or-nothing situation.

2) As WizarDru said, tailor challenges (and XP awards) directly to your party. Each PC party has its strengths and weaknesses. The problem at epic levels is that "strength" equals immunity (defense) or ability to destroy instantly (offense), and "weakness" equals deadly vulnerability, since anything that targets a PC's vulnerability and comes from an epic monster or NPC is likely to result in quick death. Picking monsters out of the ELH is simply not workable for these situations; an atropal, for instance, is murder on PCs not protected from ability and level drain, but (relatively) easy meat for a party loaded with positive energy spells. I recommend that if you use a challenge that directly exploits a serious party weakness, you set that challenge substantially below the party's level in terms of CR, and throw in a different monster or two that the PCs can combat with some more effectiveness. Otherwise, you'll have a nuke fight on your hands. Generally, mixed groups of monsters are the most effective.

3) House rules are your friend. I had the good fortune to start my 3e game after the ELH came out (we converted PCs from 2e who required epic rules to play, so I put converting our game on hold until we had official rules). Many of my house rules are influenced by epic considerations; for instance, heal/harm, mind blank, shape change, disjunction, teleportation, and true seeing, among others, work much differently IMC, as do skill-boost items. 3.5 has fixed many of the problems I encountered, but more (disjunction!) are out there. In particular, I've found that moving from all-or-nothing mechanics (like 3e mind blank) are simply less interesting at epic levels that opposed mechanics (like AU mental protection, for instance).

4) Epic Spellcasting. Eesh. I will disagree with the conventional wisdom here that ES is completely useless given the huge XP and GP requirements; I find that it's useless for many applications (for example, dealing damage or summoning creatures) and incredibly useful (read: broken) for buffing. Even "low-epic" characters can get high double-digit AC bonuses, casting stat bonuses, and other scary and difficult stuff for nice low research and casting DCs. Likewise, it's pretty easy to use ES to ward oneself against all sorts of attacks using the reflect and ward seeds. I think that generally, the numbers require a complete revamp. Until then, I've just moved the skill prereqs for ES up to Spellcraft 33 ranks and Knowledge (arcana) 33 ranks, meaning I have five or so levels worth of advancement before my PCs worry about it.

 

[Argent Silvermage]

The one thing that I learned from my brief attempt at running an epic level game is that it's not like standard D&D with powerful characters - it's closer to running a superhero game with the Justice League or the Authority.

I have to agree with that. I really try hard to keep Bolo thinking he's a small fry compared to dragons and other "creatures of Legend" but he has leveled gyth invasion forces.

I sometimes long for a medium or beginner game where there is real growth. At epic levels Bolo is great (I Love the janni!) but there is very little room for growth. to keep up with the other players and the monsters I have to keep taking druid levels even though He should be taking Janni levels.

The worst part is that I think very organically. If something effects my character in a way that changes him/her I work with it, (case in point: Bolo has ranks in Knowledge Psionics. I gave him them after he encountered the first Psionic opponent as a way of showing that he was trying to learn more about what psionics is. I had considered making him a Druid/Psion) but now there is no real choice. (If I were to take Psion levels now it would be like dropping experience in a toilet and flushing.)`

Once again I'm not complaining I play in one of the best games I have ever encountered. and I love all my friends, but I fell Bolo is stagnating with so little choice in what he can become at this point.

 

[RuminDange]

After starting up a new campaign in 2E about 6 months before 3E came out, we converted over once we had the books and have gone from there. These characters are now ranging in level from 35 to 40.
The campaign was moving into the epic levels before the ELH came out but I had a copy of the sample rules that was given out during one of the Con's I think. We moved into epic and it has been very different.

I agree it has been difficult to challenge the party in many ways, either it is a cakewalk for them or a near TPK. Sometimes I think that is more to do with player’s thoughts thinking they are invulnerable than it does with the challenge being too difficult.
The biggest problem I have is creating high-level characters that will be challenging the party. Sometimes taking 3 to 4 days to create them properly and properly equip them.

Second I changed epic spell casting rules in a big way after reading them over and over again and couldn't justify any character PC or NPC ever taking it the way it was written. I can't believe a character would spend the better part of year developing a spell and millions of gold and tons of XP just to do a spell that did very little damage that the save was so low most characters could make the it without rolling!
So now epic spells are designed on the fly based on the spell seeds you have researched/learned. A character can plan/develop an epic spell a head of time but it doesn't cost anything in gold normally unless you are researching a new seed or having someone teach you. This way epic spells have seen play to do things that no other spell can do. And it is fun to come up with a spell to solve a problem in a moments notice like a great, powerful Archmage or Grand Priest should do.

One of the other things I've done is allow every character to finally reach 4 attacks per round. Just with some it takes a while for BAB to support it. This way a fighter type that does branch out into a lower increasing BAB can finally get those attacks, and so can a low BAB character get there at some point.

My group and I happen to like high-level play, even with it problems and complications, as the characters have more options and can face world changing events and problems. However I am also running a lower level game too on the side, as sometimes players need a break from the world changing and just to kill things and take their stuff.

Biggest advice I have for anyone going epic level play is be prepared and have a lot of time to prep things for the game otherwise you will be frustrated.

RD

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

One piece of advice I can give is to look at Exalted. That game is designed around epic fantasy characters who are supposed to topple whole kingdoms and save the world several times before breakfast.

Reading it will get you into the right mood for epic-level D&D gaming.

 

[drnuncheon]

Having played both (ELH and Arcana Evolved), I find the AE approach to levels above 20th to be more intuitive (it uses the same progression concept that one experiences from 1st to 20th level), less disruptive (you don't have to learn 'another' rule system that the ELH represents), and seamless (there is not a jump in power level from normal to epic play that the ELH represents).

The problem is that (from what I've read on Monte's site) it doesn't meet the design requirements that they were trying to meet in the ELH - that is to say, removing the arbitrary 20th level cap. From the column he posted (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_diary_36), it looks like he just pushed that cap up to 25th level - which is great and all, but then five levels later you're faced with the exact same problem. Sure, he says that he thinks that'll meet the need of high-level fans, but a lot of people probably thought the same thing about 20th level in D&D. I mean, c'mon, wish.

(One also wonders why he didn't add 11th, 12th, and 13th level spells, if he wanted to keep the progression smooth...)

J