-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Epic Experiences and Thoughts
- Thread starter WizarDru
- Start date
BSF
Explorer
I haven't had a chance to actually use Epic rules yet. I have gotten close, and I play a PC that is getting close, but the ELH is a mixed bag for my tastes. Some of the feats and items are just bigger=better. This is fine to some degree, but stylistically it just doesn't scream EPIC to me. I love the idea of Spell Seeds, but the implementation leaves me feeling flat.
Conceptually, Trainz's Epic Spellcasting houserules are nice. They add dynamic flexibility to spells. I have toyed with using Elements of Magic: Revised as inspiration for how Spellcasters can implement Spell Seeds dynamically to their casting. I am also toying with DanMCS' Weapons as Special Affects thread as a way to do the same thing with weapon specialists.
Rather than going the bigger=better route, I like the more flexibility to adjust to situations=better route. Of course, that doesn't preclude the guy that wants to be the worlds best tank. But maybe that type of character needs feats that allow him to buy back battlefield maneuverability, shrug off damage and flat out bypass DR?
I don't have any practical experience with Epic yet, so I am very interested in the discussion. Take my ideas with a few pounds of salt.
Conceptually, Trainz's Epic Spellcasting houserules are nice. They add dynamic flexibility to spells. I have toyed with using Elements of Magic: Revised as inspiration for how Spellcasters can implement Spell Seeds dynamically to their casting. I am also toying with DanMCS' Weapons as Special Affects thread as a way to do the same thing with weapon specialists.
Rather than going the bigger=better route, I like the more flexibility to adjust to situations=better route. Of course, that doesn't preclude the guy that wants to be the worlds best tank. But maybe that type of character needs feats that allow him to buy back battlefield maneuverability, shrug off damage and flat out bypass DR?
I don't have any practical experience with Epic yet, so I am very interested in the discussion. Take my ideas with a few pounds of salt.
WizarDru
Adventurer
The Justice League/Authority analogy is a good one. The players are extremely powerful, but they have their weaknesses...and one of the biggest is that even though they are immensely powerful, their friends, family, countrymen, cohorts, fellow worshippers and innocent bystanders are NOT. Being able to crush an ultraloth like a bug isn't as effective as it might be if the bad guys send noname demons to harry the PCs relationships.
Another problem of Epic Spellcasting and the ELH in general is that it doesn't FEEL Epic, as was mentioned. Only one of my players has stayed single class in 4 years and 24 levels...and he looks at the list of feats and powers...and shrugs. The Epic Cleric looks at many of the balanced abilities and says "Ooooh. I can have a Turn Dead Aura on all the time to affect very weak undead. Like I'm using my 31 daily turnings (16 Greater Turnings) as it is, now. YAWN."
I haven't read Exalted, but from what I hear, it certainly projects an Epic feel. I look at Hero, Legend of Zu and House of Flying Daggers as examples of Epic Level Characters flexing their stuff. The character of Gatsu from the manga Beserk! is an example, IMHO of an Epic Level fighter (at least, eventually).
The ELH feels like a half-hearted attempt, sometimes. It's balanced, but seems to be missing a certain pizzazz.
On the other hand, the scope of adventures that I can offer at Epic Levels is dramatically more interesting and just as fun as low level adventures. Repelling a Githyanki Invasion of the Prime, stopping an evil overlord from conquering the underdark, throwing down an evil demigod, reclaiming an ancient city from the Demon Prince Orcus, himself; travelling to the Far Realms to rescue the oldest living dragons from.....something.
A part of Epic Level play, for me, is saying "Why not?"
Another problem of Epic Spellcasting and the ELH in general is that it doesn't FEEL Epic, as was mentioned. Only one of my players has stayed single class in 4 years and 24 levels...and he looks at the list of feats and powers...and shrugs. The Epic Cleric looks at many of the balanced abilities and says "Ooooh. I can have a Turn Dead Aura on all the time to affect very weak undead. Like I'm using my 31 daily turnings (16 Greater Turnings) as it is, now. YAWN."
I haven't read Exalted, but from what I hear, it certainly projects an Epic feel. I look at Hero, Legend of Zu and House of Flying Daggers as examples of Epic Level Characters flexing their stuff. The character of Gatsu from the manga Beserk! is an example, IMHO of an Epic Level fighter (at least, eventually).
The ELH feels like a half-hearted attempt, sometimes. It's balanced, but seems to be missing a certain pizzazz.
On the other hand, the scope of adventures that I can offer at Epic Levels is dramatically more interesting and just as fun as low level adventures. Repelling a Githyanki Invasion of the Prime, stopping an evil overlord from conquering the underdark, throwing down an evil demigod, reclaiming an ancient city from the Demon Prince Orcus, himself; travelling to the Far Realms to rescue the oldest living dragons from.....something.
A part of Epic Level play, for me, is saying "Why not?"
As the afore-mentioned (By Wizardru) Lvl 24 single-classed PC, (Paladin), There actually are a few feats that are definitly interesting to My character, and Indeed I have taken most of them. not too much is comming up, however.
What I see in the ELH is that most of the "Epic" portion of it is in the skill lists, and not so much in the feats. Climbing on air comes to mind. And as a slow-learner class, being able to have a skill high enough to do something epic with it usually would mean having to a) Start with it from the begining, and b) almost exclusivly devote points into it each level.
But it's almost a nit-pick. I can do pretty epic-y things with the feats, (although it might be true I can take an ancient dragon out in a few rounds, the ancient dragon also stands a good chance of taking ME out in a few as well, so it's not something I'm looking to test out.)
What I see in the ELH is that most of the "Epic" portion of it is in the skill lists, and not so much in the feats. Climbing on air comes to mind. And as a slow-learner class, being able to have a skill high enough to do something epic with it usually would mean having to a) Start with it from the begining, and b) almost exclusivly devote points into it each level.
But it's almost a nit-pick. I can do pretty epic-y things with the feats, (although it might be true I can take an ancient dragon out in a few rounds, the ancient dragon also stands a good chance of taking ME out in a few as well, so it's not something I'm looking to test out.)
Argent Silvermage
First Post
Not to nit pick but... You seem unable to die. Not unkillable but entirely unable to die. I think greater powers than the DM are at work.Aethramyr said:
I blame Piratecat.
I've got a three year old campaign hovering at around 25th level right now that is finally winding down towards the end of the major storyline. Much like everyone else, we find the Epic Spellcasting rules a complete narf. The only Epic spells that will ever show up in the game are those used by monsters who have them as Spell-Like Abilities or as a plot device.
We only have two house rules at this point. The first is that instead of use the 10X multiplier for Epic magic items, we only multiply by 2X. Even so, the players are intensely powerful and only have a handful of Epic magic items acquired through treasure taken off dead NPC's or major monsters. The second is the removal of the death from massive wounding rules. Neither I, nor the PC's wants a enemy to die from failing a DC 15 Fortitude save whenever they do more that 50 HP of damage in a single attack. They all want to earn their kills, not luck out on a random 5% chance of a single die roll.
A key complaint is that at this level, death becomes only a minor nuisance. We are averaging a PC death every two sessions these days and we used to go months before a death would happen. A neglible mistake can cause a PC death these days just for not paying attention at the wrong moment. Of course, no one wants to create new EPIC character from scratch if they really did die due to the balance problems of designing a perfect character from level 1 to 24 without any actual game advancement variance.
Yet, nothing is a real threat to the group anymore other than a complete TPK which I am hesistant to use. I watched four level 24 PC's take on a single CR 28 monsters out in less than three rounds with some serious advanced preparation and then under the same buffs almost all die to a pair of CR 24 creatures. Balance is moot at this point and CR seems to be practically meaningless anymore.
We are only still playing at this point to finish the plot and bring all of the various threads of the story line to final completion. We are going to have to suffer through 3-4 more levels of this nonsense to make the end of the story flow smoothly, allowing for a satisfactory ending, rather than a jarring crash in the epilogue.
We only have two house rules at this point. The first is that instead of use the 10X multiplier for Epic magic items, we only multiply by 2X. Even so, the players are intensely powerful and only have a handful of Epic magic items acquired through treasure taken off dead NPC's or major monsters. The second is the removal of the death from massive wounding rules. Neither I, nor the PC's wants a enemy to die from failing a DC 15 Fortitude save whenever they do more that 50 HP of damage in a single attack. They all want to earn their kills, not luck out on a random 5% chance of a single die roll.
A key complaint is that at this level, death becomes only a minor nuisance. We are averaging a PC death every two sessions these days and we used to go months before a death would happen. A neglible mistake can cause a PC death these days just for not paying attention at the wrong moment. Of course, no one wants to create new EPIC character from scratch if they really did die due to the balance problems of designing a perfect character from level 1 to 24 without any actual game advancement variance.
Yet, nothing is a real threat to the group anymore other than a complete TPK which I am hesistant to use. I watched four level 24 PC's take on a single CR 28 monsters out in less than three rounds with some serious advanced preparation and then under the same buffs almost all die to a pair of CR 24 creatures. Balance is moot at this point and CR seems to be practically meaningless anymore.
We are only still playing at this point to finish the plot and bring all of the various threads of the story line to final completion. We are going to have to suffer through 3-4 more levels of this nonsense to make the end of the story flow smoothly, allowing for a satisfactory ending, rather than a jarring crash in the epilogue.
Fieari
Explorer
Right now, I'm planning from the get go to have my current campaign go into epic levels. I've also decided flat out that I won't be using the ELH... I'm still hoping against hope that Upper Krust will have his Immortal's Handbook ready by the time I actually need to use it. Fortunately, my players are only levels 6 and 7 right now, so I won't NEED it for a while yet.
But basically, I've got a story in my head which starts with the "young innocent" adventurers awakening an ancient evil at low level, which slowly gains more and power as it awakes, leading up into a war across the planes and heavens, where the warriors will be destroying stars with singles blows of their swords... where entire nations, entire worlds will be directed as living weapons-- and I don't even know which side of the war the PCs will choose!
The sort of thing I'm planning simply would not work with the ELH. I need -EPIC- spell casting... stuff that will, as I said, snuff out stars, or cast a kingdom into perpetual winter, or charm an entire kingdom. Like others have said, the ELH seems to want Epic Spellcasting to be an Epic Mage's combat method of choice, which just doesn't cut it. I calculated the cost of casting Narnia into an eternal winter, and just raising the area to a significant level put the casting DC into the hundreds of thousands, encroaching on millions.
So yeah. I'm definitely waiting for the Immortals Handbook. Luckily, my players have plenty to go through before they'll ahve to worry about this.
But basically, I've got a story in my head which starts with the "young innocent" adventurers awakening an ancient evil at low level, which slowly gains more and power as it awakes, leading up into a war across the planes and heavens, where the warriors will be destroying stars with singles blows of their swords... where entire nations, entire worlds will be directed as living weapons-- and I don't even know which side of the war the PCs will choose!
The sort of thing I'm planning simply would not work with the ELH. I need -EPIC- spell casting... stuff that will, as I said, snuff out stars, or cast a kingdom into perpetual winter, or charm an entire kingdom. Like others have said, the ELH seems to want Epic Spellcasting to be an Epic Mage's combat method of choice, which just doesn't cut it. I calculated the cost of casting Narnia into an eternal winter, and just raising the area to a significant level put the casting DC into the hundreds of thousands, encroaching on millions.
So yeah. I'm definitely waiting for the Immortals Handbook. Luckily, my players have plenty to go through before they'll ahve to worry about this.
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hi all! 
Interesting discussion.
There is a simple solution for this.
Basically I noticed a flaw in how CR is determined and fixed it. The basic idea is that you use ECL as CR for monsters AND characters (the official rules don't do this). Once you have that done you only need use the equation:
ECL/CR x2 = Encounter Level +4*
and therefore...
ECL/CR x1.5 = EL +2
ECL/CR x3 = EL +6
ECL/CR x4 = EL +8
*Increasing an encounter level by +2 makes the encounter twice as difficult (same as doubling the number of opponents).
The other factor is multiple characters/opponents:
2 opponents = EL +2
3 = EL +3
4-5 = EL +4
6-7 = EL +5
8-11 = EL +6
12-15 = EL +7
16-23 = EL +8
etc.
From this we can immediately determine
eg. Your party is 4 characters of 23rd-level (CR 23*).
*for simplicity lets say CR 23 each (although you need to account for ability scores to be totally accurate).
If you want to assign challenges for that party:
ECL/CR 23 will represent a moderate challenge (which the party should win using approx. 25% of their resources)
ECL/CR 34 will represent a tough encounter.
ECL/CR 46 will represent a difficult encounter (party 50/50 chance of being defeated)
A quick method of determining a monsters ECL from the official CR is to multiply it by 1.5. Unless the monster is a dragon, or epic monster in which case use CR x2 to get the ECL.
Interesting discussion.
Zad said:
There is a simple solution for this.
Basically I noticed a flaw in how CR is determined and fixed it. The basic idea is that you use ECL as CR for monsters AND characters (the official rules don't do this). Once you have that done you only need use the equation:
ECL/CR x2 = Encounter Level +4*
and therefore...
ECL/CR x1.5 = EL +2
ECL/CR x3 = EL +6
ECL/CR x4 = EL +8
*Increasing an encounter level by +2 makes the encounter twice as difficult (same as doubling the number of opponents).
The other factor is multiple characters/opponents:
2 opponents = EL +2
3 = EL +3
4-5 = EL +4
6-7 = EL +5
8-11 = EL +6
12-15 = EL +7
16-23 = EL +8
etc.
From this we can immediately determine
eg. Your party is 4 characters of 23rd-level (CR 23*).
*for simplicity lets say CR 23 each (although you need to account for ability scores to be totally accurate).
If you want to assign challenges for that party:
ECL/CR 23 will represent a moderate challenge (which the party should win using approx. 25% of their resources)
ECL/CR 34 will represent a tough encounter.
ECL/CR 46 will represent a difficult encounter (party 50/50 chance of being defeated)
A quick method of determining a monsters ECL from the official CR is to multiply it by 1.5. Unless the monster is a dragon, or epic monster in which case use CR x2 to get the ECL.
WizarDru
Adventurer
Well, that's not much of a help to me, personally. If I have to add an extra step of calculations (and I'll admit, I still don't follow your system, even on my third time through), you've just made Epic even more work for me. Plus, I have to translate everything into that system, which I'm not inclined to do, honestly.
My personal experience has been that CR is not an effective determiner after a certain point. Two CR24 creatures were cannon fodder, but another CR 24 creature nearly caused a TPK. My reservations about your system are still that if I have to do that much work, it's not much more use to me than winging it based on my experience with the group. And at Epic levels, knowledge of the players styles is as important as any of their stats.
My personal experience has been that CR is not an effective determiner after a certain point. Two CR24 creatures were cannon fodder, but another CR 24 creature nearly caused a TPK. My reservations about your system are still that if I have to do that much work, it's not much more use to me than winging it based on my experience with the group. And at Epic levels, knowledge of the players styles is as important as any of their stats.
BSF
Explorer
I'll be honest. I use CRs as rough guidelines. The group I DM for has 7 PCs, almost none of them are core classes. Large group with a variety of classes means I run a lot of it based on gut feelings. Knowledge of their play style is a big key here.
You know what, sometimes I even exploit that knowledge to craft a challenge for them. If I know that they have trouble with certain tactics, I sometimes put together adversaries that intentionally use those tactics to ramp up a challenge. I don't do it all the time, or even all that often, but often enough to give the players fits. Generally, they adapt well.
I can see how this would be applicable to a greater degree in epic realms. But that is part of the reason why I slowly expose the group to these types of challenges. With luck, they will be ready to adapt on the Epic side of things when we get there.
You know what, sometimes I even exploit that knowledge to craft a challenge for them. If I know that they have trouble with certain tactics, I sometimes put together adversaries that intentionally use those tactics to ramp up a challenge. I don't do it all the time, or even all that often, but often enough to give the players fits. Generally, they adapt well.
I can see how this would be applicable to a greater degree in epic realms. But that is part of the reason why I slowly expose the group to these types of challenges. With luck, they will be ready to adapt on the Epic side of things when we get there.
Similar Threads
