Epic Feats

[Cloudgatherer]

Just to add to the confusion...

Here are 4 feats that have no prereq's at all for the 20th level Wizard/1st level fighter to take with his bonus fighter feat as per the current rules.

<snip>

Some pretty good skills there for the lowest fighting ability possible...

What's your point? It's a 21st level character, do you think he should have to take Weapon Focus or Dodge just as if he were only a Ftr1?

"Haha, I'm an archmage who has tons of combat experience and I have just learned the art of Dodge!"

Mook Ftr1: "Yeah, we all learned that. Ha ha!"

Face it, there's no way the wizard is going to get any of the "good" epic fighter feats. Also, that same wizard is shooting himself in the foot, taking levels away from a casting class is just as dangerous at high levels (more so) than at low levels. The wizard (or any char for that matter) should get the benefit of any doubt here and be allowed to choose whatever feat he wants.

 

[mikebr99]

What's your point? It's a 21st level character, do you think he should have to take Weapon Focus or Dodge just as if he were only a Ftr1?

That is my point! Any character before 21st level taking a level in fighter has these bonus feats to choose from (phb quoted only... there are more in the splat books)

Ambidexterity, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge (Mobility, Spring Attack), Exotic Weapon Proficiency*, Expertise (Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Whirlwind Attack), Improved Critical*, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike (Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist), Mounted Combat (Mounted Archery, Trample, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge), Point Blank Shot (Far Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run), Power Attack (Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Sunder, Great Cleave), Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting), Weapon Finesse*, Weapon Focus*, Weapon Specialization (at 4th fighter level)*

Why all of a sudden, since he is becoming 21st level by taking the 1st level in Fighter, does he also get to choose from the four feats I quoted from earlier?

Why is the power increase different for a character picking up a level of fighter at 11th, from when he does it at 21st?

Please realize that I am only talking getting bonus feats from non-epic classes, not the ones from character level.

"Haha, I'm an archmage who has tons of combat experience and I have just learned the art of Dodge!"

according to my books... there is a fairly extensive list of things a 1st level fighter has the option to take, other then dodge.

Mook Ftr1: "Yeah, we all learned that. Ha ha!"

I'm glad you find this amusing....

Face it, there's no way the wizard is going to get any of the "good" epic fighter feats.

Thats right... because he isn't a "good" fighter... he's a "good" Wizard, with a little bit of "fighter" knowledge.

Also, that same wizard is shooting himself in the foot, taking levels away from a casting class is just as dangerous at high levels (more so) than at low levels.

Once a Wizard has reached 20th level, he doesn't loose nearly as much as he would have if he had multiclassed at 10th. He now has as many spells as he is ever going to get. All he is loosing is a caster level, and 2 bonus spells to add to his book, and by 20th, he should have almost every spell he would ever want to use anyway. The caster level is a bit more painful, but not when you consider that a good part of his spells are already maxed out for their respective performance.

The wizard (or any char for that matter) should get the benefit of any doubt here and be allowed to choose whatever feat he wants.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here... but, any 21st level character is allowed to pick any epic feats that he qualifies for with his character level bonus feats...

but...

if the class that he is leveling up in, isn't also EPIC, then any bonus feats from that should be chosen from the regular lists in the phb or the splat books (ie. non-epic).

 

[toberane]

Why all of a sudden, since he is becoming 21st level by taking the 1st level in Fighter, does he also get to choose from the four feats I quoted from earlier?

Why is the power increase different for a character picking up a level of fighter at 11th, from when he does it at 21st?

Ummm... because he's now an epic-level character, maybe? Following this logic, why is there a break at all? Why can't a 19th level fighter who meets all the prerequisites take epic feats?

The reason, simply, is because the game designers determined that 20th level was the point where the PHB rules began to weaken, and so they drew an imaginary line in the sand and said "21st level is where you become epic. Then we're gonna change the rules on you."

AS much as you might not want to believe it, there is a difference in ability, experience, etc. between a new character who takes his first level of fighter and an experienced character taking his first level of fighter. At 1st level, you'll be fighting kobolds and orcs, so getting a +3 to your hit points for the toughness feat is a much stronger feat. By the time you are 21st level, you're hunting demons and moderate-sized dragons. The power of these epic feats is greater than the power of the non-epic ones from the PHB. However, the challenges that the character will use these feats to face have also substantially increased in power since 1st level.

 

[mikebr99]

Ummm... because he's now an epic-level character, maybe? Following this logic, why is there a break at all? Why can't a 19th level fighter who meets all the prerequisites take epic feats?

The reason, simply, is because the game designers determined that 20th level was the point where the PHB rules began to weaken, and so they drew an imaginary line in the sand and said "21st level is where you become epic. Then we're gonna change the rules on you."

I agree with you... there has to be some kind of transition point. But my thinking is that the Epic Fighter is a new class... one that needs 20 levels of the regular Fighter to get into... so, if you qualify for the epic class, then you can take epic class abilities... if you only qualify for a regular class or PrC, then you only get the abilities listed with them.

BUT... you still get epic feats based on your character level.

AS much as you might not want to believe it, there is a difference in ability, experience, etc. between a new character who takes his first level of fighter and an experienced character taking his first level of fighter. At 1st level, you'll be fighting kobolds and orcs, so getting a +3 to your hit points for the toughness feat is a much stronger feat. By the time you are 21st level, you're hunting demons and moderate-sized dragons. The power of these epic feats is greater than the power of the non-epic ones from the PHB. However, the challenges that the character will use these feats to face have also substantially increased in power since 1st level.

I agree with this also... that is why I am saying... stay in that class that got you where you are today... become that 21st level epic Wizard... rule the world that way...

There are minuses for multiclassing... but doing it after 21st level shouldn't lessen these.

 

[AuraSeer]

But my thinking is that the Epic Fighter is a new class... one that needs 20 levels of the regular Fighter to get into...

That's a great way to explain it! When you reach class level 21, the abilities of the class always change; the fighter shouldn't be an exception to this.

Look at the monk class for an example. When you gain a normal class level (Mnk20 or less), you gain nonepic class features-- the ones specified on the PHB chart. When you gain an epic class level (Mnk21 or more), your 'class features' involve epic bonus feats.

Contrast that to the fighter. When you gain Ftr1, your nonepic class features include a certain list of feats. At Ftr21, your class abilities change, the same as for any other class. This is more subtle than the change for the other classes, because the epic and nonepic fighters each get bonus feats, but the two feat lists should be different.

(Yah, I know that the book says the opposite, but it's only v1.0. We won't know what it meant until the first patch comes out.)

 

[drnuncheon]

At less than Epic levels a lvl of FTR gives you +1 BAB, good Fort save, 1 Feat, d10HD, and 2+INT skills.

At Epic levels a lvl of FTR gives you a chance to take an Epic feat, d10HD, and 2+INT skills.

Hmm, looks like a better deal at non-epic levels.

The same goes for Monk, or any other class, you lose a lot by waiting til epic level to MC. The availability of Epic feats doesnt really match it.

That still doesn't change the fact that you're getting the Epic Fighter's bonuses, while someone who MCs into Monk or Ranger or Barbarian or anything else are not getting the Epic Monk or Ranger or Barbarian or anything else bonuses. Why should Fighter be an exception? Nobody has thus far come up with a good reason IMO.

Or, let's put it a more reasonable way. A Ftr20 vs a Ftr5/Brb15 (both the same race: human, dwarf, or half-orc, to keep MC penalties out of the picture). Both hit 21st level and take Fighter. The Ftr5/Brb15 gets two epic fighter feats while the Ftr21 gets only one - and he can continue to get them as fast as the epic fighter does, if he sticks with fighter. Plus, he can get most of the rage feats. Where's the tradeoff there? The fighter's got 7 more non-epic feats, but in practical terms that's going to translate into a small increase in breadth, and not anything appreciable in depth, simply because the feat chains are so small.

Allowing a PC to choose Epic Fighter feats when you're at non-Epic Fighter levels lets them bypass the cost of multiclassing - they're not paying the price anymore. 1 or 2 (or more!) levels of fighter becomes too attractive to anybody but a spellcaster. The Rng20 is going to say "Hmm...wait until 23rd level for my first ranger bonus feat - or take a couple of fighter levels and get one right now? What do I lose...ooh, half a caster level and two skill ranks. That's tough." The Brb20 is going to be thinking "How often am I going to need to rage 7 times a day? And I never set off traps anyways. And I can get how much Damage Reduction through the feat? Screw the 2 skill ranks and the hit point, I'm there."

(Consider a Brb30 vs. Brb20/Ftr10. Same BAB, same saves, same # of regular feats. The BRB/Ftr gets 4 more class feats. He spends one on Damage Reduction (so he equals the Brb30) and one on Epic Toughness (he now has on average better hit points than the Brb30). He's still 2 feats ahead. If he chooses to spend a character-level feat on Extra Rage, he can rage just as many times as the Brb30...and he's still 1 feat ahead. He loses some skill ranks and +3 on the Uncanny Dodge vs. Traps to gain 10 hp and a feat. That's not a bad tradeoff for a barbarian in my book.)

In short, multiclassing into fighter at 20th level should suck just as much as it does for multiclassing into any other class.

J

 

[Crothian]

That still doesn't change the fact that you're getting the Epic Fighter's bonuses, while someone who MCs into Monk or Ranger or Barbarian or anything else are not getting the Epic Monk or Ranger or Barbarian or anything else bonuses. Why should Fighter be an exception? Nobody has thus far come up with a good reason IMO.

In OA, the monk can switch out certain class features for feat.s Wizards can choose an epic feat at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. Rogues can do it as their special ability at levels 10, 13, 16, and 19. IF you use Monte's Ranger, they can do it at levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19.

Granted not all classes get bonus feats, but any of them that do, can take epic feats as long as they have Character level of 21 and higher.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Right. SOME classes can, but not all of them. What you're doing with this unnecessarily literal interpretation of the rule is making classes that receive feats as a class ability inherently superior at epic levels to classes that do not receive feats as a class ability.
drnuncheon's comparisons, above, are dead on.

BTW, toberane, the difference between an inexperienced character taking a level of fighter, and an epic character doing the same, is already built into the system. The epic character has at least +10 BAB, has eight character level feats, and can take epic feats, fighting or otherwise, at 21st, 24th, 27th,... level.

More to the point, though: high-level wizards aren't supposed to be good fighters, nor do they have to be. By 20th level, a single-classed wizard is the most powerful character in the game. Allowing them instant access to epic combat feats isn't a balancing decision; it's madness.

 

[Shalewind]

That still doesn't change the fact that you're getting the Epic Fighter's bonuses, while someone who MCs into Monk or Ranger or Barbarian or anything else are not getting the Epic Monk or Ranger or Barbarian or anything else bonuses. Why should Fighter be an exception? Nobody has thus far come up with a good reason IMO.

That and everything that follows sums it all up. A very well put argument.

Fighters have always had the edge in feats, the fact is that they needed it as they get little else. Sure a MC character could always dump levels into fighter to get a few extra feats, but below level 15 or so, it is too much of a sacrifice.

After hitting 20th level, things change. A lot of the time, characters have the ability they want in most skills and hit points aren't the issue any more. It all comes down to the feats. Regular classes recieve small increases to their special abilites, but the real power is taking epic feats.

The only real problem lies in the fact that the other fighting classes will have an advantage in taking fighter over their base class.

 

[CRGreathouse]

(Yah, I know that the book says the opposite, but it's only v1.0. We won't know what it meant until the first patch comes out.)

You think we'll know then? We're still arguing over the PH, despite errata and two printings...