Janos Audron
Explorer
Rog 5 / Wiz 19 takes another wizard level. He gets a bonus feat, but can this feat be epic or must this be a normal feat?
[Epic] Feats
- Thread starter Janos Audron
- Start date
Crothian said:
Sorry, but that's not at all correct, Crothian. ELH page 8, "Adding a second class", last paragraph thereof, paying especial attention to the colored text:
That means, the original poster can select a feat from the Epic Wizard's bonus feat list. The only requirement to do that is, be an Epic character and gain a bonus feat form any Wizard level, epic or nonepic alike. The nonepic Wizard class, when using ELH rules, automatically includes all Epic Wizard bonus feats, with the prerequisite being, you must be Epic to select from that list.
This also works in reverse, of course. An Epic Wizard can always select from the nonepic Wizard bonus feat list.
Ankh-Morpork Guard
First Post
Pax:
Isn't that for just adding a second class AFTER you've become Epic? *just looked it up*
Isn't that for just adding a second class AFTER you've become Epic? *just looked it up*
Sorry if this is a double-post, I got a database error so I'm going to try again ...
Crothian, no it's not.
That section starts out with:
That section is NOT talking about a Wizard(21+)/Fighter(21+) or the like. So it's not talking specifically and expressly about dual-epic-class characters. It is, in fact, speaking about an epic characetr multiclassing and picking up non-epic levels of some other class.
If you wish to insist it refers only to epic class levels, then please quote me where it states such. Especially as that section would be completely irrelevant for such a situation. Epic Fighter, for example, specifies within itself, that nonepic fighter bonus feats are also available for selection.
That section refers to nothign except the concept of multiclassed epic characters gaining bonus feats from non-epic class levels, being able to choose epic feats from teh list for the epic version of those classes.
I.E., Rogue(5)/Wixard(19) gains a level of Wizard, and can pick fromt eh Bonus Feat list for Epic Wizards.
...
Ankh-Morphok: Epic doesn't mean you have an epic class. It means your Character level (or ECL for level-adjusted characters) is 21 or higher. A Fighter(7)/Rogue(7)/Wizard(7) is an epic character, who simply doesn't have any epic class levels. A fighter(6)/Rogue(6)/Wizard(6) Half-Dragon (ECL +3) is an epic character, too.
Crothian, no it's not.
That section starts out with:
That section is NOT talking about a Wizard(21+)/Fighter(21+) or the like. So it's not talking specifically and expressly about dual-epic-class characters. It is, in fact, speaking about an epic characetr multiclassing and picking up non-epic levels of some other class.
If you wish to insist it refers only to epic class levels, then please quote me where it states such. Especially as that section would be completely irrelevant for such a situation. Epic Fighter, for example, specifies within itself, that nonepic fighter bonus feats are also available for selection.
That section refers to nothign except the concept of multiclassed epic characters gaining bonus feats from non-epic class levels, being able to choose epic feats from teh list for the epic version of those classes.
I.E., Rogue(5)/Wixard(19) gains a level of Wizard, and can pick fromt eh Bonus Feat list for Epic Wizards.
...
Ankh-Morphok: Epic doesn't mean you have an epic class. It means your Character level (or ECL for level-adjusted characters) is 21 or higher. A Fighter(7)/Rogue(7)/Wizard(7) is an epic character, who simply doesn't have any epic class levels. A fighter(6)/Rogue(6)/Wizard(6) Half-Dragon (ECL +3) is an epic character, too.
Ankh-Morpork Guard
First Post
The way I read it, you can only gain Epic Feats if you are taking your 1st level in a second class AFTER you have already gone Epic. *reads it again*
"When your Single Class Epic Character gains a level, you may you may choose to increase the level of your current character class or pick up a new class at 1st level."
That's the first sentence in that section, and seems to be what the rest of the section bases its information on. So, you could pick the Epic Feats if you're a Rogue 20/Wizard 1, but NOT a Rogue 5/Wizard 19 because neither were started at Epic Levels.
"When your Single Class Epic Character gains a level, you may you may choose to increase the level of your current character class or pick up a new class at 1st level."
That's the first sentence in that section, and seems to be what the rest of the section bases its information on. So, you could pick the Epic Feats if you're a Rogue 20/Wizard 1, but NOT a Rogue 5/Wizard 19 because neither were started at Epic Levels.
Except a Rogue(5)/Wizard(19) is an Epic character, and has been an Epic character for four levels.
I tend to think the section was written on the presumption, and from the POV, that most Epic characters would be single-classed, not multiclassed.
I also wonder if, early on, Epic was only to be applied to characters who HAD 21+ levels of a single class, rather than 21+ levels in total.
Also, the specific section only says that single-class epic characters can add the 1st level of a new class, just like a nonepic character can when he or she multiclasses.
I don't think "single-classed epic character" is a requirement there, because generally speaking ... you don't GET bonus feats at 1st level for anything but a Fighter.
And once you go Wizard(21)/Fighter(1) ... you're not single-class anymore, now, are you?
I cannot read that rule as being anything other than a general ruel applying to all situations where nonepic class levels are being combined, in a single epic character. A Wizard(12)/Fighter(9) is epic, when he gets Fighter(10) he should get to select an Epic Fighter feat ... just like a Wizard(21)/Fighter(1) should. Why, after all, should the guy who knows LESS about being a fighter, get to pick a BETTER feat for his fighter bonus, than the fellow with (now) ten TIMEs as many fighter levels?
It's pretty clear to me: whenever you get a bonus feat from a limited list due to gaining a nonepic level of a class, and you are an epic character by any means, you can select either from the nonepic list of bonus feats for that class OR the list of epic bonus feats for that class' epic version.
IE, if you are gaining Wizard(20), and are an epic character, you can pick form teh PHB list of bonus feats for Wizards, or, form the ELH list of bonus feats for Epic Wizards. you are, after all, a Wizard, and you are, after all, Epic.
Even if you don't have levels in "Epic Wizard", per se.
Also note, that is the ONLY reference the ENTIRE book makes to Multiclassing as an epic character, at all.
However, directly form the FAQ (my copy is dated 10/25/2002):
I have to admit, that directly contradicts me. Then again, it also directly contradicts the friggin' ELH itself!!!!
I'll go get an updated ELH FAQ if there is one, and be back later tonight. Meanwhile, I think I'll fire off a "WTF?!?" to Wizards over that stupidity, which is probably why Crothian holds his position.
I tend to think the section was written on the presumption, and from the POV, that most Epic characters would be single-classed, not multiclassed.
I also wonder if, early on, Epic was only to be applied to characters who HAD 21+ levels of a single class, rather than 21+ levels in total.
Also, the specific section only says that single-class epic characters can add the 1st level of a new class, just like a nonepic character can when he or she multiclasses.
I don't think "single-classed epic character" is a requirement there, because generally speaking ... you don't GET bonus feats at 1st level for anything but a Fighter.
And once you go Wizard(21)/Fighter(1) ... you're not single-class anymore, now, are you?
I cannot read that rule as being anything other than a general ruel applying to all situations where nonepic class levels are being combined, in a single epic character. A Wizard(12)/Fighter(9) is epic, when he gets Fighter(10) he should get to select an Epic Fighter feat ... just like a Wizard(21)/Fighter(1) should. Why, after all, should the guy who knows LESS about being a fighter, get to pick a BETTER feat for his fighter bonus, than the fellow with (now) ten TIMEs as many fighter levels?
It's pretty clear to me: whenever you get a bonus feat from a limited list due to gaining a nonepic level of a class, and you are an epic character by any means, you can select either from the nonepic list of bonus feats for that class OR the list of epic bonus feats for that class' epic version.
IE, if you are gaining Wizard(20), and are an epic character, you can pick form teh PHB list of bonus feats for Wizards, or, form the ELH list of bonus feats for Epic Wizards. you are, after all, a Wizard, and you are, after all, Epic.
Even if you don't have levels in "Epic Wizard", per se.
Also note, that is the ONLY reference the ENTIRE book makes to Multiclassing as an epic character, at all.
However, directly form the FAQ (my copy is dated 10/25/2002):
I have to admit, that directly contradicts me. Then again, it also directly contradicts the friggin' ELH itself!!!!
I'll go get an updated ELH FAQ if there is one, and be back later tonight. Meanwhile, I think I'll fire off a "WTF?!?" to Wizards over that stupidity, which is probably why Crothian holds his position.
Ankh-Morpork Guard
First Post
Pax said:
I don't see how it contradicts the ELH...it simply says you can't select Epic Feats as class Bonus feats unless your class level is Epic...which agrees with my position on it...
The Rogue 5/Wizard 19 in question couldn't take an Epic Feat at 20th level of Wizard, because 20th level isn't Epic yet...seems simple enough to me. *shrugs*
