Epic/Immortal Prestige Classes

[Kerrick]

It's in Complete Divine too. They steal spells and SLAs from opponents, similar to a Spellthief.

Ah.

Taking into account the Maskim in the Bestiary and its ability to SA on every hit, I'd hardly say that Void Presence is overpowered for an Immortals Handbook game. (I'm assuming that's the ability that makes every hit a SA.) Level 30 does seem appropriate though.

Oh, for an Immortals game? No, not overpowered. I was talking standard D&D.

I think it's a cool idea, but I think we might have differing opinions on what's too powerful and what's not. My group likes to optimize with Ascension, which already sets the bar high, and that's the system I design for and how I gauge balance, whereas you have your own modified ruleset, right?

Yeah, I think your idea of "overpowered" is a lot higher than mine, especially if you're using Immortals Handbook rules. Project Phoenix is a lot closer to standard D&D rules, though I'm still getting a handle on balancing epic stuff - RAW epic is so wonky it's hard to tone it down to be "balanced" while still "more powerful than pre-20th level".

Well, it's more to the point that there aren't THAT many concepts for epic feats and class abilities, and you want to avoid an epic PrC being nothing more than a collection of feats.

Well yeah, definitely.

How about the reverse, using Death Attack DC for the spell's DC?

At those levels, spell DC is likely going to be higher. DA DC is 10+1/2 class level + Int mod + mods. Spell DC is 10 + spell level + stat mod + misc bonuses. There are very few things that add to a death attack DC (one feat that I know of, and maybe some class abilities), whereas there's a crapton of stuff to boost spell DCs, and any caster worth the name is going boost his casting stat.

Also, I'm having visions of delivering a Death Attack via Finger of Death.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking too.

Uses per day are SO 20 levels ago. I suppose if you're going for a more...mellow game, than yeah, some restrictions should apply. I'm a bit loose as a DM when it comes to that (which I make up for by throwing appalling challenges at the party)

Yeah, yeah. It's a lot easier to power up than power down, IMO - why don't we make it for straight up D&D, then you can tweak it out for your level of play?

I don't really agree, but that's fine. I wouldn't bat an eye at getting full SA/DA and full Arcane Spellcasting, especially with a rogue's chasis. It's your idea, though. I don't really have super ninja-mages in my setting, which is what I build PrCs for, so I'm just offering input.

That's cool. I'm just tossing out ideas. My line of thought, though, is that a) it's not a pure caster class; b) the character's already getting a boost with the rogue HD/saves (good Ref/Will, right?), and c) it's more of a class centered around assassination and stealth than gaining spell power (like, say, the Archmage), so a stunted progression makes more sense. And, too, I'm just tired of seeing all these full-caster-progression classes.

True, but what's to stop every epic rogue from taking both?

Nothing. Nor should there be. Although personally, I'd either rewrite the VIn, or cannibalize it for this class. It's a mess.

Well, I prefer to not have worthless abilities that lag 20 levels behind my character level at epic, but whatever. I suppose even 1/2 casting can't hurt a rogue.

Depends where you set the prereqs. If you're aiming for L50 entry, then yeah - you'll have to have some serious abilities. I'm not very good at designing for that level of play, though. *shrug* Adding rogue levels to caster level just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Your call.

I'm asking for opinions here. Feel free to disagree and put forth your own ideas. I chose that because it's rather descriptive of what the class IS - it's an arcane assassin/thief. I think. We should really start back at the beginning and figure out an overarching theme before discussing abilities... What does the class do, what is its purpose, and who would be best suited to take it.

 

[Belzamus]

Sounds good to me.

So, if you can put together a basic layout, maybe, that we can use as a foundation. I'd be happy to try and make it work for "normal" epic play and then work on an Immortals version afterwards.

I'm thinking an assassin/warlock should be a separate class too, so I think I'll start working on some ideas for that.

Also, wow Death Attack kind of sucks. An Ascension only adds an epic feat that cuts it down to 1 round. There's a feat in the ELH for +2 dc, but that's hardly worth it.

Any ideas on how to make it better?

 

[shadethief]

How about building in a class ability that allows you to add your class level, or your primary spellcasting attribute to the DC? It's similiar to the abilities in Ascension that let you add your divine rank, but that includes all items that involve a DC. This would only allow you to increase the Death attack DC.

 

[Belzamus]

Well, then you get the issue of adding INT twice if you're an Assassin/Wizard. But something along those lines would work I think.

For another ability, how about being able to either steal or just "use up" a certain number of spell levels by forgoing Sneak Attack dice?

 

[Kerrick]

I was turning this over in my head a little bit this morning, thinking about the concept. Shade says he wants elements of the assassin, the rogue, and the wizard, so we'll go with that - an arcane assassin who can steal others' abilities to augment his own.

Now. Let's figure this thing will be mid-epic, around 25th-30th level. I'll do the prereqs later, but it gives us a good baseline for power.

So, we've got...

Death attack (duh). Based on later suggestions, we'll make this an Arcane Death Strike, where you can infuse the DA with a touch spell, which takes effect when you make a successful DA.

Sneak attack (duh). Toss in 3d6 of sneak attack dice.

Touch attack to "steal" attributes/supernatural abilities/spells (Scaling ability; you get spells first, then Su, then stats, or something. Not sure how this would fit into the overall archetype, though).

On a successful death attack that kills the target, you gain one or more of the target's spells known/prepared. (Possible, though it's already included in the above.)

Can expend spell slots (either your own or those stolen; not sure on this) to... go invisible, dimension door, HiPS, or something else thief-like. (I like this idea, personally, and I'd love to find a way to implement it.)

The ability to cast spells without anyone being able to detect them, like Subtle Spell, but no Spellcraft check to detect it. (This would be a low-level ability, 1st or 2nd.)


Since I like to do scaling abilities along "paths", I'd organize them into Stealth, Killing, and Theft (tentatively; I'm running stream-of-consciousness here). So Stealth would cover stuff like Subtle Spell and the ability to expend spell slots to HiPS and whatnot; Killing covers the Arcane Death Strike et al; and Theft is the "steal abilities" abilities. Thoughts?

 

[Kerrick]

I would've posted this last night, but the servers were pitching a fit.

Anyway, I spent some time thinking about this at work, and I came up with the following. I know this is duplicating some of what I mentioned earlier, but I'm refining a bit, and tentatively assigning levels now.

Death attack/assassination path. This would be levels 1/4/7/10 (yeah, there's no L10 ability yet - need a good one).

Levels of class stack with assassin levels for DCs.

Arcane Death Attack: Can infuse your weapon with a touch/ranged touch spell; if you make a sneak attack/death attack, it takes effect.

Sacrifice a spell of any level to create a dagger of magical energy. The dagger has an enhancement bonus equal to the spell's level and lasts for 1 round/spell level or until you make one sneak attack/DA per spell level, whichever comes first. You can't use this ability with Arcane Death Attack.

Theft Path: I'm thinking 2/5/8 for these.

Spellstealer: You can steal a target's spell or SLA by making a touch attack. The target must be flat-footed, and you have to make a Sleight of Hand check vs. DC 10 + HD (or something; there should be a save here - maybe a simple Will save?). You gain the use of that spell/SLA for 24 hours, until you gain a new one, or until you go unconscious, and the target loses it for the same period.

Soulstealer: As above, but you can steal Su abilities.

Ranged Spellstealer: As Spellstealer, but you can do it with a spectral hand spell.

I haven't come up with anything for Stealth, but I'll put my brain to it today.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

I think the three key Rogue abilities are Sneak Attack, the ability to 'Steal' and the ability to 'Hide' or somehow avoid damage.

The higher you progress the more unbelievable these abilities should get. I'd probably try and think up some themes to represent every 10 level 'step'.

eg. Steal magic, steal abilities, steal souls, steal time etc.

...oh and Arcane Assassin is a cool name.

 

[Kerrick]

Hey guys!

I think the three key Rogue abilities are Sneak Attack, the ability to 'Steal' and the ability to 'Hide' or somehow avoid damage.

Sneak attack goes without saying. I was going to toss in SA at 3/6/9, independent of anything else. I hadn't thought about hiding/avoiding damage, but that might be treading on the Shadowdancer's toes too much. Course, we could make this something that requires Shadowdancer and Assassin... that would be an epic class. I don't think I ever posted a link to my revised Shadowdancer, but I'd work off this one (alt skills notwithstanding) simply because it's better balanced and adheres better to the Shadowdancer's archetype.

So... we make the class (still unsure on the name) require death attack, HiPS, about 15-20 ranks in Hide/MS, and ability to cast 6th level arcane spells. That puts it around L25.

Getting back to the additional abilities... this class is centered around misdirection and evasion - similar to the Shadowdancer, but more arcane in nature. He can create mirror images, shadow doubles, distracting noises/images (but not full-on illusions), and at higher levels, can dimension slip (like the SD's shadow walk, but more powerful). It's got to tie into the arcane caster requirements, though. The ability to avoid damage could be tied into sacrificing spells - blow a spell to dimension slip or something, but I dunno... there's got to be some way to tie the arcane caster requirements into this to make it a coherent whole (so that the arcane death attack isn't just an add-on ability), but I can't think of anything that's not a kludge.

 

[Belzamus]

Dragon 297 had a bunch of epic prestige classes, one of which, I just remembered, was an epic assassin with advanced spellcasting through Improved Spell Capacity and an expanded list of 6, 7, 8, and 9th level Assassin spells. Might be worth considering, though I do think it's from 3.0

If nobody has it, I'll see if I can dig it up.

 

[Kerrick]

297 would've been 3.5... that wasn't too long ago.

Anyway, I was thinking about this earlier, and I think we've got two different classes now - one is centered around stealing spells/abilities, and the other is an illusionist type, sort of an uber-Shadowdancer. Both work off the same base - rogue and mage - but I think the spell-stealer is more of the assassin type (steals your abilities and uses them against you) while the other is more of a straight rogue (though he can be an assassin; the class itself, though, doesn't include or require death attack). This prevents us from trying to shoehorn abilities into a class that doesn't need them, and I like to keep the class to where you can describe it with a single sentence.

So, I'll ponder on the Mageblade/Arcane Assassin/whatever first, then do the other one later. Y'all are free to toss out ideas, too.