Epic Multiclass Characters: Does 20 total levels count as epic?

[gooeylouie]

If a character or even monster has at least 21 hit dice but i different levels, does that make them epic, or do all the hit dice have to be in one class?

For example: lvl 21 wizard = epic
lvl 11 wizard/lvl 10 rogue = epic or not?

I want to know this for the purpose of knowing whether they can get epic feats and overcome Damage Reduction/epic

 

[TDRandall]

Epic. It is total character level that matters, per first sentence of http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm

 

[delericho]

Characters do. I'm not so sure about monsters - the MM contains some beasties with more than 20 hit dice, and I don't think those are automatically considered Epic.

 

[n00bdragon]

If you're working with the Epic Level Handbook (and not, apparently, considering self harm) then yes. A character becomes epic at level 21 and is able to take epic feats then. Once a character reaches epic level in a class however (as covered in the book) they usually get epic bonus feats as well. This might have been what was confusing you. So if you were a level 15 Paladin and a level 10 Cleric you would have received two epic feat choices (at level 21 and again at 24 per your regular schedule). However, if you were a straight level 25 Paladin you'd not only be an epic character but also an Epic Paladin and you'd have those two epic feats as normal, plus you get an epic bonus feat from the Epic Paladin Bonus Feats list on page 13 which you received at level 23.

 

[Quartz]

21 HD = Epic. Monster HD count but LA does not. Example: a centaur has (IIRC) 4HD and LA +2 for a total of +6. But a centaur PC needs 17 character levels (to have 21 HD), not 15, to be Epic, even though that centaur would gain XP as a 23rd level character. A monster with 21+ HD is automatically Epic.

If you are character level 21+ but have fewer than 20 levels in a class, you can still take Epic feats when that class gives you a feat. E.g. A Rogue 9 / Fighter 11 who chooses Fighter for his class at level 21, so becoming a Rogue 9 / Fighter 12, gets two feats at level 21: one from being level 21, and one from being a 12th level Fighter. Both can be Epic feats.

PCs cannot overcome DR: Epic simply by virtue of being Epic level - they need Epic weapons.

 

[n00bdragon]

If you are character level 21+ but have fewer than 20 levels in a class, you can still take Epic feats when that class gives you a feat. E.g. A Rogue 9 / Fighter 11 who chooses Fighter for his class at level 21, so becoming a Rogue 9 / Fighter 12, gets two feats at level 21: one from being level 21, and one from being a 12th level Fighter. Both can be Epic feats.

This is incorrect. The fighter can select any 1 epic feat he qualifies for and 1 feat from the fighter bonus feats table listed in the player's handbook. Only a level 22 or higher fighter may select feats from the Epic Fighter Bonus feats list. Note that this list, like the list of Fighter Bonus Feats, is shorter than the entire list epic feats.

If I had to hazard a guess you probably got the idea it worked that way from Neverwinter Nights, which has a glitch that allows non-epic classes to select epic class feats whenever they could choose a bonus feat as long as their character level is at least 21.

 

[Quartz]

This is incorrect. The fighter can select any 1 epic feat he qualifies for and 1 feat from the fighter bonus feats table listed in the player's handbook

Got a cite to back that up? Because it's nonsensical. Remember that the ELH supercedes the PHB. I wasn't aware of Neverwinter Nuights, but that's the way to do it. Only character level matters. Otherwise taking any Prestige Class would really cause problems.

 

[n00bdragon]

Got a cite to back that up? Because it's nonsensical. Remember that the ELH supercedes the PHB. I wasn't aware of Neverwinter Nuights, but that's the way to do it. Only character level matters. Otherwise taking any Prestige Class would really cause problems.

Sure do. Page 11 of the ELH. I have the book right here in my hands. "The epic fighter gains a bonus feat (selected from the epic fighter bonus feats) every two levels after 20th." It then goes on to list the Epic Fighter Bonus feats and at the end of the list says "In addition to the feats on this list, the fighter may treat any feat designated as a fighter bonus feat, but not listed here, as being on his bonus feat list." They had to specifically include his nonepic feat list for him to be able to still take those if he wants to after he goes beyond fighter level 20. Notice that every single class gets bonus feats, bonus feats which are not tied to character level but specifically to your class level. Example: The epic monk gains an Epic Monk Bonus Feat from the Epic Monk Bonus Feats List at every 5th level as shown on table 1-8 on page 13. This is absolutely not tied to character level. A level 24 character who reaches level 25 and decides to take 1 level of monk cannot choose an Epic Monk Bonus Feat just because he's now level 25. He's only a level 1 monk. Keep in mind that you still have access to epic feats every third level just like normal (level 21, 24, 27, 30, etc) and those can be chosen from the big giant list of all the epic feats just like regular feats.

And no, taking a prestige class doesn't gimp you terribly... if you took one of the prestige classes with an epic progression described in the Epic Level Handbook, those being the Arcane Archer, Assassin, Blackguard, Dwarven Defender, Loremaster, and the Shadowdancer.

 

[Quartz]

Sure do. Page 11 of the ELH. I have the book right here in my hands. "The epic fighter gains a bonus feat (selected from the epic fighter bonus feats) every two levels after 20th."

You do realise that that cite agrees with me? It doesn't specify Fighter level 20, just level 20. You're an Epic fighter for being over level 20 and taking a level in Fighter, not for having over 20 levels in Fighter. You could be Cleric 20 / Fighter 1 and still be an Epic Fighter.

 

[n00bdragon]

I have no idea how you get that interpretation from that text. It's extremely clear. Like... I'm out of ways to counter you. The text incontrovertibly refers to class level. I've shown you what the text says. You are incorrect in creatively interpreting it to mean something totally wrong and not in any way related to what it says. Every chart in that entire chapter refers to class level. The only time character level is even mentioned is the two points where it discusses BAB and save progression and the accumulation of feats every third level, all of which do work off of character level, not class level.

No. You're wrong. What the book says is correct.