Epic PrC Idea for Eadric of Deorham Urgently Required

[Sepulchrave II]

Thanks all, for input

Alternatively, WotC has recently put up the 'Celestial Paragon' on their website, which you might want to use as a basis for a full-blown PrC if you decide to go that route

This, along with the Divine Emissary, has been the topic of much discussion. We've also looked at the 'Transformational' Epic Classes - Acolyte of the Skin, Dragon Disciple, Elemental Savant - as they all grow towards embodying certain principles.

Consider the level progression of a Chosen of XX deity template, ala Forgotten Realms?

I haven't seen it. I'd be interested in taking a peek, though.

As a side note, have you looked at the Knight of the Chalice PrC from DotF? Essentially, it makes you into a Demon killing machine. Might be good for Ed.

Way back when, this was considered as a possibility. Its a little too unidimensional, though, and Lombard decided against it.

Otherwise for a custom class I'd consider the following 'base' progression rate as an Outsider (1d8 HD, Good BaB and all Saves Good, 8+Int for skills)

We'd discussed the possibility of advancing in outsider HD too But 8 skill points is a hell of a lot. BAB and save progressions would be epic, in any case +1/2 levels.

If it really bothers you that much you could just do 2 10-level PrCs.

Perhaps build the 20-levels in 5-level chunks, grouped according to theme

I think the idea of breaking it up has great merit - hence the idea of applying the two templates (half-celestial, then quasi-deity) in succession.

It sounds like you're asking for mechanical advice as much as for thematic/how-to advice; is that correct? That is, do you want holistic input on the whole ECL/Sanctification with Beatitudes/templates "kit," or do you want input on just how this all balances out (number-crunching only), or both? Various paths for possible advice obviously will flow differently per your response.

The two ideas which inspire this whole debate are ascended masters and living masters. Ascended masters have already died - they are beatified/canonized upon their death, and they acquire certain powers - namely DvR0 and the Half-Celestial palette of special abilities.

Living masters are much rarer - same ZAP, but not dead yet. Obviously, Eadric would fall into this camp. We know where he has to go, it's just how he gets there that's the problem.

Grodog - your other questions are complicated and I need to think about them. I see no particular 'limiting factor' though, as far as mortal capabilities are concerned.

 

[Seravin]

Oops

I really shouldn't post this late, especially since I have already forgotten about the BAB and save progressions going epic. But what the heck.

We'd discussed the possibility of advancing in outsider HD too But 8 skill points is a hell of a lot. BAB and save progressions would be epic, in any case +1/2 levels.

I mostly agree with the 8 skill points being a lot. It certainly doesn't fit where Eadric has been. Or even where he sees himself going in a few levels I suppose. But explain it as divine insight and spend it on a few knowledge skills and then you have the beginnings of something epic. Not that he doesn't seem epic already.

Just an added two silvers to the pile.

One question though, is how will this stack up to the others? It's easy to focus on Eadric because I like and admire the character. The dm in me wants to make sure the others aren't being overshadowed - that balance is maintained. Mostin has his advancement obviously. Are there similar plans for Nwm and Ortwin? In 10 or 15 or 20 levels are they going to be able to still adventure together?

 

[Mytholder]

I'd break it into two or more steps. Work out, say, a five level Epic PrC that turns Eadric into some celestial-like entity - he finishes up looking mechanically like a celestial, but you're using the regular advancement system instead of tacking on HD.

I think that trying to plan advancement for 10+ epic levels is folly. Take it in manageable steps...

 

[alice_of_ebony]

I happened to run across someone's homebrew 'Celestial Disciple' PrC here

 

[BiggusGeekus@Work]

I also like grodog's idea of breaking it up. It'll be more satisfying for the player as well. He can acheive a series of nearer-term goals. Of course the character shouldn't care one whit, what with patience being a virtue and all that.

I somewhat disagree with SR28 being not much. It won't help him in real fights, but it basically gives him immunity to low-level casters. It's a special effect, not unlike being able to cast light. It may come in useful at some point in time. I guess all I'm saying is not to dismiss it so casually.

 

[Rackhir]

Looking over Sepulchrave II's posts I guess the thing I am most unclear about is exactly what kind of power level you are looking for at the end of this process. I would try and figure that out and then work backwards from there. Don't try and build up, figure out where you want to be and then back fill.

That said, one idea that occured to me would be to come up with perhaps a chinese menu sort of arrangement, where Eadric could focus on an aspect of Orthanon and gain some related abilities based on the aspect that he had been focusing on from the "Merciful" list. Or you could make it so there was a list of options for each aspect, but he could only take the ability for the level he was at, so he'd have to say choose between "Divine Vengence" (say a whirlwind attack with smiting enhancements) or Purity of Focus (immune to will save effect spells/powers for x number of rounds), since he couldn't go back and concentrate on the purity aspect vs the vengence aspect.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Some more thoughts.

It occurred to me that the idea of "ascended masters" (which precipitated this whole dilemma) is still very much open to development. None have played any role whatever in the campaign to date, and my notes on them literally consist of:

"DvR0; half-celestial abilities."

Whilst it has always been my intention to introduce one or more of them at some point in the future, I've never really given much thought beyond that. Perhaps I need to reconsider what their powers should be.

As has been mentioned, certain abilities (light, protection from evil etc.) are totally redundant by high level, much less epic levels. Whilst I am happy to include them in the list of abilities of an 'ascending' character, I don't think they should carry any weight as far as balancing vs. characters of similar ECL goes. They are trivial.

Some abilities, however (dispel evil, holy aura, holy word, hallow, symbol, summon celestials, resurrection) continue to be valuable, even into epic levels - particularly considering the fact that caster level = character level for half-celestials.

Increases to stats are also a major power-up compared to other characters, especially considering the fact that they stack with inherent and enhancement bonuses.

If you were to apply the half-celestial template instead of 4 levels and compare what is gained to what is lost with any other Epic Class (core, prestige, whatever), I'm wondering if it is actually too much:

BAB: Epic Class gains +2 (+1 at 21st; +1 at 23rd). The template grants +4 Str, effectively the same thing in melee, and +2 Dex which is +1 for missile weapons. The template also grants associated benefits which higher scores bring (AC, Initiative, Skill Checks etc.)

Saving Throws: Epic Class gains additional +2 to all saves by 24th character level. Again, stat bonuses alone for the template (+4 Wis, +4 Con, +2 Dex) almost make up for this.

Hit Points: The template's +4 Con will grant 40 hit points to a 20th level character. Another favourable comparison.

Skill Points: The discrepancy depends on the class here, but it's important to note that I allow Intelligence increases to retrospectively increase skill points. The template would thus effectively add +20 skill points (+2 Int Increase from template), comparable to a (2+Int) progression for a human with 14 intelligence. Note that ability increases will also boost every skill the character has by at least +1.

Feats: An Epic character gets a feat at 21st, and another at 24th. A fighter would also get two bonus feats, and many other classes would get one. The Template gives none. But see below.

Natural Armour: The Template gives +1 natural armour - half of that granted by the epic feat 'Armour Skin.' When you throw in the +4 save vs poison that the Template grants, I'm inclined to say that its worth a regular feat, or maybe even an epic feat - albeit a weak one.

Electricity, Acid and Cold Immunity: Technically, these are the equivalent of at least 3 epic feats - note that the Energy Resistance epic feat only grants resistance 10 to any one energy type. I say technically, because no player in their right mind would blow an epic feat on Energy Resistance.

Spell-like Abilities: (Or the ones that matter, at any rate). The Template grants resurrection, summon monster IX, symbol, holy word, hallow and dispel evil each once per day and holy aura 3 times per day. Not to be sniffed at. Eadric's caster level would be 20th. Save DCs would be 18+ spell level - his charisma would be 27 with the Template.

Oh, and unlike the Template, a 24th level character would gain a +1 increase to any ability score.

 

[Shampoohorn]

chiming in

Hey there. I'm a 'longtime listener, first time caller' in the wonderful adventures of Ware. I've got a few minor thoughts on your progression.

First off, I like the idea of lateral progression into the half-celestial template. Gaining abilites instead of hit dice etc fits well with the notion of Eadric transorming into a different being. The bonuses to ability scores make up for the lack of true level advancement.

Even so, consider interspersing a few outsider levels into it. Like a few people mentioned, the ECL for an half-celestial without wings ought to be +2. Give him a few d8's on the way up to ecl +4 (beatitude level 4). This will also give him some 16+ skill points to play with and will keep the feats coming.

I like the slow progression of elemental immunities you've outline from levels 1 to 4. You should consider spreading SR and DR over all ten levels. Given that we're talking about an epic level character here, the initial bonuses to SR and non-magic DR are nearly insignificant and would be there mostly for character flavor.

Overall, I like the ideas in your beatitudes progression.

Just the same, check out the Savage Species formats for celestial progression.

Good Luck!!

 

[Piratecat]

Sepulchrave, I'm a big fan of PrC's that let you pick your abilities as you go up. FFG's legendary classes do this, and I tried to do it when I designed my own paladin prestige class. The epic PrC you describe could even be considered four progressive 5-level Legendary Classes.

It might be fun to group the epic PrC in 5-level stages, as suggested, but in each of these stages create celestial-esque and godlike abilities that lock in place depending on when they're chosen. I like the idea of Eadric having to decide which ability to choose next, and having it be a hard decision.

 

[Mytholder]

I like the idea of Eadric having to decide which ability to choose next, and having it be a hard decision.

Because what Eadric really, really needs is more hard decisions.