Epic PrC Idea for Eadric of Deorham Urgently Required

[Sepulchrave II]

I can't help but feel underwhelmed as an Epic character looking at things like SR 12, 5 energy resistance, or the ability to cast light once per day as a quid pro quo for another Epic PrC or even Epic class progression.

I concur.

Another thing which occurred to me on reflection, was that it might be desirable to grant certain abilities fully developed: SR32 immunities etc. - another argument recommending a PrC progression rather than a ECL progression.

If you assume d8 hp/level and 2+Int skill points, how do people see a list of these abilities developing over 20 levels? Is it even possible? Would any bonus feats typical of Epic PrCs need to be dropped in order to maintain balance. What about effective spellcasting level - I'm guessing that no increase is the most likely and balancing.

At the same time, I don't want to sell the player short.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Very interesting indeed, but I'm not sure how much I can help...

For the current idea I suggest an ECL of +7, for higher level games, I think the general consensus was that a full half celestial with wings was about ECL +3 and one without was only +2, while a Divine Rank 0 (no Salient Abilities) was +4. Not to mention +7 (+1 Aasimar with +2 Wingless Half-Celestial with +4 DR 0) seems the perfect number for ascending into celestially divine status (as I think you mentioned part of your campaign has drawn from similar sources). This doesn't include any HD or class skills, but a "monster class" would probably work too. Take into account that SR 32 isn't that big at ECL 27, (A drow would have SR 36) and it doesn't scale like a drow's does.

Alternatively, WotC has recently put up the 'Celestial Paragon' on their website, which you might want to use as a basis for a full-blown PrC if you decide to go that route (For the second transcension ability, WotC suggests to add on the Celestial template)*. I say basis since the PrC over all is generally weaker than a normal one, especially compared to the Void Initiate right below it.

*Precedence-In the Fiend Folio-I believe, there's an outsider race that has the Alienist as a common class for their race, so they ruled that at level 10, since they're already outsiders, that they simply gain the pseudonatural (T&B version, of course) template.

Consider the level progression of a Chosen of XX deity template, ala Forgotten Realms? I have a basic template for it which I can find if you want it (it may not be on this comp though, in that case I got it from Kalanyr, who's also a Wyre addict )

Anyways, I hope this post can work as thanks for your help with my Primeval template

Edit-Btw, I saw Shomei at the Rogue's Gallery, very very nice. If you don't mind me suggesting, a variety of PrCs would fit her very well.
-The Summoner PrC from Relics and Rituals I, requires that the summoner makes a pact with an entity (such as a devil lord or similar), and allows the summoner to choose from the next higher list when casting a Summon Monster spell, with Summon Monster 9 either summoning 1d4+1 8th list critters, 1d3 9th list critters, or even the Summoner's master...It also has some metamagic feats
-The Nar Demonbinder from Unapproachable East, which has been posted on WotC's website as well, I suggest not using the alternate spell list though-that's just clunky and nuts (not to mention, incomplete -but its easy to infer the abilities of the class onto a 10 level progression). Instead, I suggest splitting out a +7 bonus spellcaster level progression. This PrC has all kinds of fun abilities, and if you read the wording, its not specific to Demons, so you could just rename it the Fiendbinder or Devilbinder. If you do make it specific to Evil outsiders, maybe you could boost up the spellcasting level progression (if you take my suggestion).

Anyways, sorry to babble on, Shomei is a very interesting character though

 

[Lela]

PS: I'm planning on making more Celestial Disciples soon. If you tell me which one Ed is interested in becoming, I can make a PrC (10, 15 or 20 level) for that specific half-celestial.

You know, I was wondering when you'd get to more of those. In fact, I was thinking of giving you a prod earlier today, just didn't get a chance to go looking for that thread.

Sep: I agree on the skill points and HD issue. While the lack of skill points won't hit Ed that hard, imagine if you tried to to the same thing with Motsin or Ortwin. Our Satyr friend is built on skills (Bluff anyone) and Spellcraft is the bread and butter of Epic Level Spellcasting. No BAB increase is going to have the same effect on Ed.

Also, I noted one your progression that SR 28 is gained at level 29. That will really do him absolutly no good. The rest are similar.

IYC, you'd have to be careful about using Reserection as a guidline. Though the templete calls for it, should (or would) Ed ever use it?

I do love the idea, though I wouldn't allow it IMC. But it's amazing what works in yours that wouldn't work in mine.

As a side note, have you looked at the Knight of the Chalice PrC from DotF? Essentially, it makes you into a Demon killing machine. Might be good for Ed.

I will note that one of the prequs is Demons as a Favored Enemy. Personally, I don't think there is any reason to stick to that (the class isn't actually based off it) and am not above changing PrCs to suit my needs.

 

[Seravin]

I'm probably biased here...

Like tleilaxu I'd have to recommend a look at Savage Species. In particular they have a suggested advancement rate for both Astral Devas and Ghaele's. The both cover 20 levels of advancement - though I'd consider tightening that up a bit as the Deva has only 12hd across those 20 levels and the Ghaele has only 10hd.
Still it sounds close to the prestige class idea you're considering.

Otherwise for a custom class I'd consider the following 'base' progression rate as an Outsider (1d8 HD, Good BaB and all Saves Good, 8+Int for skills)

Granted abilities could certainly follow your Beatitudes. Unfortunately I haven't played/dm'd into epic levels either, so I'm not sure what would be appropriate. Looking at your suggested progression I would probably spread the spell like abilities over more levels (higher level abilities later) and bring the DR and SR in a little earlier to compensate.

anyways, just my two silver pieces...

 

[Hashmalum]

3) Create a custom prestige Epic PrC which takes the character to quasi-deityhood over 20 levels. There is no precedent for a 20-level Epic PrC either.

A 20-level PrC doesn't seem too odd considering that you can take as many levels in an epic PrC as you want. What would seem odd would be to have 3, 5, 6, 10, or infinite-level PrCs, but nothing in between 10 and infinity. If it really bothers you that much you could just do 2 10-level PrCs. IIRC, the Catholic church doesn't lift people to sainthood all at once; they have to be beatified before being canonized. The first PrC "beatifies" the character, the second "canonizes" them.

ObRave: Your story hour is great! I really appreciate you taking the time and trouble to share it with us.

 

[grodog]

OK Sep, here are some quick thoughts, suggestions, and questions. Please bear in mind that 3e mechanics are not a vast strength of mine, and that I've read through the ELH only once, with some cursory browsing inspired by your writing from time-to-time afterward....

• It sounds like you're asking for mechanical advice as much as for thematic/how-to advice; is that correct? That is, do you want holistic input on the whole ECL/Sanctification with Beatitudes/templates "kit," or do you want input on just how this all balances out (number-crunching only), or both? Various paths for possible advice obviously will flow differently per your response.
• How do you want Eadric to grow in power in comparison to other already-divine figures (eladrin, devas, planetars, solars, etc.)? Should his ascention to divinity be different in character, quality, flavor, and tone because he's coming to the divine from a mortal basis? Relative to gaining HD, skill points, etc., do Wyrish mortals have a limit to their possible growth in power---whether by Oronthon's divine decree, the constraints of their mortal frames/soulstuffs, etc. (i.e., should he be able to "take" a solar [or Graz'zt for that matter] at some point)?

Some specific other places you might look for inspiration:

• If you don't have a copy of it, find The Primal Order (one of WotC's first products), which exhaustively deals with divine intervention, -ascention, etc. from a campaign-general POV vs. rules-based POV. It's better than 1e or 3e D&DG, btw. (You can search around; I didn't see copies on eBay; I did find copies at NobleKnight.com at http://www.nobleknight.com/BrowseAndSearch/Browse_Process.Asp?Line=1711679426 but they're $45 each, which seems a bit pricey to me, but definitely still worth it overall for the content).
• Also useful is the Dragon 79 (November 1983) article "Setting Saintly Standards" by Scott Bennie, which makes nice analogues between quasi-deities and saints. Similarly, EGG's original Dragon 71 (March 1983) article introducing the quasi-deities is interesting/useful for general reference too (much of the data is reprinted in the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set, but some of the stats for the q-d's were altered in that version). The D&DG of Greyhawk articles also have a muchly-expanded listing of standard 1e divine powers, which may be useful for reference/comparison to 3e's D&DG. Some other non-traditional quasi-quasi-deity-like (ahem) NPCs exist in Greyhawk (in particular Gwydiesin of the Cranes and Iggwilv herself) if you want some other bases for comparisons. If you don't have any of these items and want copies, let me know and I'll email .pdfs to you.

Some number crunching:

• An observation: in terms of raw "balance" by adding points to characteristics you're definitely increasing upon the PHB increase progression of +1 per 4 levels---you're providing +20 in the first four levels; I'm not sure whether this is good or bad, it just stuck out to me.
• How significant are the powers/stat increases you're giving relative to other Epic powers: is SR 12 at ECL 25 relatively worthwhile/significant? How do your outlined powers stack with your pre-existing divine templates, since Eadric has benefitted from them at various times in the past and is likely to do so again at some point (doesn't he still have one instance of Grace left?)

re: your specific comments:

Evil/Fiendish (execrations?)

I always liked the nomenclature from the Storyteller and Ars Magica games: demonic investitures, taints. My favorite thesaurus comes up with these suggestions: stigma, defilement, blemish, degredation, odium, imputation, vilification, blemish, malignancy, bane, anathema, and scourge. Don't know if any of these will help, but they were the ones that stuck out across a few entries.

My initial idea was for a 20-level Epic PrC, but, frankly, the idea of designing one was a bit daunting. I'm not intimate with the Epic Rules, simply because I've had so little experience of them in play. My instinctive feel for balance just doesn't work at Epic levels.

Note that there's nothing to stop you from designing the progression one level at at a time, after you've seen how it works out in play. Perhaps build the 20-levels in 5-level chunks, grouped according to theme; or model using the celestial choirs as your basis: who ever said that a PrC track had to be divisble by five anyway?

 

[Caliber]

I also suggest checking out the "Monster Classes" in Savage Species.

They're pretty good.

 

[Lela]

• (doesn't he still have one instance of Grace left?)

No, his third instance was when he Transended (Divine Disciple). He essentially got that level for free.

 

[grodog]

Thanks Lela

 

[Lela]

Thanks Lela

NP