Epic Rogues

[mmu1]

I've been away for a while, so I have no idea if people yelled at each other on this particular topic or not... But does anyone else think rogues really get badly done by in the epic rules?

Where's Epic Sneak Attack? Where's the ability to get around (with the right feats and a healthy does of luck, of course) things like Fortification, Concealment, Uncanny Dodge and all the other relatively low-level abilities that make sneak attacks impossible? Where's at least some limited ability to deal damage to constructs and undead? How about extended sneak attack range?

Pretty much all that happens is that the d6's keep on piling up, with not a care in the world for the fact that they're useless, because they can all be taken care of by a simple casting of blur. How hard is that going to be to manage for a 20th or 30th level character with an interest in not getting stabbed in the back? Exactly... Uncanny Accuracy does take care of a small part of this problem - but only when it comes to using ranged weapons.

What rogues end up with instead is things like being able to balance on clouds or tumble through a wall of force... Which are cute, but this has been, and still is (as evidenced by all the feats, spells, items and monsters in the ELH) a combat driven game, and the poor freakin' rogue effectively gets de-clawed.

 

[James McMurray]

Lingering Damage is the "Epic Sneak Attack" you're looking for.

As for damaging undead with sneak attacks (or other critical immune creatures) if you really think it should be allowable, create your own epic level feat for it. I personally think that it shouldn't be allowed, but to each his own.

The rogue does not get declawed. A non-epic character is just as capable of getting defenses against being sneak attacked as an epic one. The lack of feats that allow a rogue to sneak attack constructs and undead is just maintaining the status quo.

If the enemy is uing magic or an item as defense, the rogue just has to be smart and find a way around the defense. If the enemy is inherently immune to sneak attacks (i.e. undead and constructs) the rogue should use his stealth to hang back, or get up there and distract the foe somehow. Just because D&D is a combat game doesn't eman that every character should be effective in every battle.

 

[Nish]

I'm right there with ya man. Except that I'm more concerned about the Epic stealth. While its nice to be able to kill things (I have a tendency to overlook that aspect when I create and advance characters), if that's what I wanted to do I'd play a fighter. For me, what epic rogues really need are more options for stealth and legerdemain. As far as I'm aware, Epic rogues can be scried by a plain old 7th level wizard just as easily as a 1st level rogue. Not accounting for magic items of course; we're talking about about special abilities here, not eq which can be largely class independent. How are you supposed to be the ultimate master of stealth and deception if any Joe Magus can know where you are whenever he wants? The only thing along these lines that I've seen is the ability to hide your surface thoughts with DC 100 bluff check. It would be nice if a high enough Hide could begin to act as Non-Detection, or something similiar. Ultimately my point is that it should be an Epic task to find an Epic rogue, the same way it should be an Epic task to defeat an Epic Fighter in 1-on-1 melee combat.

As for sneak attack at epic levels, I think James has a good point about things like undead and constructs that are by their very nature immune to such things. However, it might be nice if rogues had some means by which to circumvent some of the defenses against sneak attack. Defenses like Blur (a second level spell for chrissake!) and Fortification armor, things that are not innate and in some cases not very powerful or "high-level".

 

[gfunk]

Your look at Epic Rogues is rather one-dimensional:

1. They can pick up the feats Dextrous Will and Dextrous Fortitude, which can truly make their save bonuses outrageous.

2. The feat Epic Dodge is very potent as well.

3. Rogues, with their high number of skill points, should keep pumping them into Use Magic Device. By the time they hit level 21, they should be able to use nearly any magic item. Picking up something with True Seeing for example can negate many concelament modifiers making sneak attacks impossible.

 

[James McMurray]

Rogues do have a way around blur and fortification armor: attack when those defenses aren't available. Their stealth skills make choosing their own time and place for battle a very doable task.

 

[Nish]

Rogues do have a way around blur and fortification armor: attack when those defenses aren't available. Their stealth skills make choosing their own time and place for battle a very doable task.

Except that any 'ol spell caster will be able to scry the rogue at any time and know what they're up to.

Also keep in mind the point I made earlier about rogues in parties. Sure, in theory an epic level rogue could sneak into just about anywhere and kill someone in their sleep, but how much fun would that be for the rest of the players? And more likely than not, the DM is going to have designed the situation in such a way as to require the abilities of all the party members. What if the party is ambushed? Do you really expect the rogue PC to run and hide so that he can fight her attackers when they don't have their spells up and armor on, even though her allies don't share that option?

Besides, this is epic levels we're talking about. A character should theoretically be able to get a feat to do anything. Its just a matter of meeting the prerequisites.

 

[Nish]

Your look at Epic Rogues is rather one-dimensional:

1. They can pick up the feats Dextrous Will and Dextrous Fortitude, which can truly make their save bonuses outrageous.

2. The feat Epic Dodge is very potent as well.

This does nothing to help the fact that rogue generally completely suck at dealing damage without sneak attack. However, I do think that a well designed epic rogue would be one of the more surviveable epic characters.

3. Rogues, with their high number of skill points, should keep pumping them into Use Magic Device. By the time they hit level 21, they should be able to use nearly any magic item. Picking up something with True Seeing for example can negate many concelament modifiers making sneak attacks impossible.

While that's true, it only helps against magical concealment modifiers, which is just one of the countless ways to negate SA. Besides, its just one more thing increasing the dependency of D&D characters on magic items.

 

[The Iron Mark]

Well in Dragon #297 I think it is, there is a feat that requires death attack. When you take it, you make sneak/death attack all constructs, undead, and plants. All you have to do is find a Prc that has death attack and doesn't require you to be evil.

 

[bret]

I think the Spymaster PrC from Song & Silence gives Mind Blank as a special ability. I'm not sure if there are any other PrCs that do this.

The relative ease of scrying is a problem in it's own right. The only thing that helps against this is a high Scry skill, which is unfortunately cross class for the rogues. The Forgotten Realms Cosmopolitain feat could solve this (makes any non-exclusive skill a class skill), but that isn't part of the core rulebooks.

 

[Nish]

I think the Spymaster PrC from Song & Silence gives Mind Blank as a special ability. I'm not sure if there are any other PrCs that do this.

Some people treat PrC's like they're the cure for the common cold. However, I probably would only take one if it was absolutely perfect for a given character concept. I would prefer just a little more flexability in the core classes, which the ELH gives us (although, not before you obtain 20 levels first ). Unfortunately, the ELH doesn't come equipped with any specific abilities along those lines. I wouldn't care so much if I were better at coming up with stuff on my own, and my DM was more accepting of things that didn't come from a WotC book.

The relative ease of scrying is a problem in it's own right. The only thing that helps against this is a high Scry skill, which is unfortunately cross class for the rogues. The Forgotten Realms Cosmopolitain feat could solve this (makes any non-exclusive skill a class skill), but that isn't part of the core rulebooks.

There are a couple of problems with this:

• Not a help for those not playing in the FR.
• Isn't that one of the feats which must be taken at first level, or am I thinking of something else?
• Most importantly: Scry is an exclusive skill

Thanks for the suggestion though.