Epic Rogues

[drnuncheon]

Blur, 2nd level Arcane spell. Provides concealment, thus preventing Sneak Attack.

True Strike, 1st level arcane spell. Eliminates concealment, thus allowing sneak attack. (And you have always had to resort to magic to defeat magic in D&D so saying "but that's using magic" is not an exceptionally good counterargument.)

Wand or scroll of dispel magic (used with rogue's UMD skill).

There's just as many ways to shut this down as there are to shut sneak attack down. And, of course, there's no guaranteethat the target will have Blur in his repertoire, let alone be an arcane spellcaster.

Fortification as an Armor Enchantment prevents criticals and sneak attack damage. For a high level character, it becomes very useful.

...and very expensive, if you want it to work every time. If not...oh well, this strike didn't do 12d6 extra damage (plus wounding plus lingering plus hamstring plus...), the next one will. And what are you giving up for that heavy fortification? +4 AC (much easier to hit you now) and/or other armor special abilities...

In short, there will be some enemies immune to a rogue's sneak attack - but then again, there are some enemies immune to any class' special ability, and the ones that concentrate on beating rogues will be vulnerable in other ways. Which is why you bring along your three buddies.

J

 

[Nine Hands]

I've been away for a while, so I have no idea if people yelled at each other on this particular topic or not... But does anyone else think rogues really get badly done by in the epic rules?

Where's Epic Sneak Attack? Where's the ability to get around (with the right feats and a healthy does of luck, of course) things like Fortification, Concealment, Uncanny Dodge and all the other relatively low-level abilities that make sneak attacks impossible? Where's at least some limited ability to deal damage to constructs and undead? How about extended sneak attack range?

Pretty much all that happens is that the d6's keep on piling up, with not a care in the world for the fact that they're useless, because they can all be taken care of by a simple casting of blur. How hard is that going to be to manage for a 20th or 30th level character with an interest in not getting stabbed in the back? Exactly... Uncanny Accuracy does take care of a small part of this problem - but only when it comes to using ranged weapons.

What rogues end up with instead is things like being able to balance on clouds or tumble through a wall of force... Which are cute, but this has been, and still is (as evidenced by all the feats, spells, items and monsters in the ELH) a combat driven game, and the poor freakin' rogue effectively gets de-clawed.

We made mention of this during playtest. Certain rules in regular D&D do not work well at higher levels. Harm...Anti-Magic Field...Vorpal Weapons...100% Fortification

Our suggestion was to have a feat that reduced fortification by 25% and was stackable. Then introduce a version of Epic Fortification that increased the amount by 25% to 50% and was stackable.

Vorpal is a CDG in my game (its just easier to deal with), Harm allows a save for reduced damage, Anti-Magic Field allows a caster leve check for spells above 8th level (this is more of a personal issue than anything else).

As of yet, the changes seem to be working fine.

 

[bret]

True Strike, 1st level arcane spell. Eliminates concealment, thus allowing sneak attack. (And you have always had to resort to magic to defeat magic in D&D so saying "but that's using magic" is not an exceptionally good counterargument.)

It is very questionable if True Strike allows a rogue to attack someone with concealment.

The True Strike spell says "you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target."

Sneak Attack says "The rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment ...."

My interpretation is that the True Strike spell does not negate the concealment, it just prevents you from having to roll the miss chance. Since the target still has concealment, you do not get Sneak Attack damage.


Sneak Attack damage is nice. When I play a rogue, I really look forward to getting an opportunity to make one. In my experience, even before Epic levels there are way too many methods for shutting it down. At Epic levels, I fear it would only get worse.


I don't have the ELH here, so I can't check. Are there many monsters in the ELH who are susceptable to Sneak Attack?

 

[jontherev]

It is very questionable if True Strike allows a rogue to attack someone with concealment.

The True Strike spell says "you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target."

Sneak Attack says "The rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment ...."

My interpretation is that the True Strike spell does not negate the concealment, it just prevents you from having to roll the miss chance. Since the target still has concealment, you do not get Sneak Attack damage.

I disagree. TS gives you temporary insight into the future, which is why you get to bypass the miss chance. IMO, the rogue also gains knowledge of where the vitals are, and since there's no miss chance...KAPOW! However, technically speaking, the concealment is still in existance, so if you throw out the divination part of TS, you are right.

Sneak Attack damage is nice. When I play a rogue, I really look forward to getting an opportunity to make one. In my experience, even before Epic levels there are way too many methods for shutting it down. At Epic levels, I fear it would only get worse.

I don't have the ELH here, so I can't check. Are there many monsters in the ELH who are susceptable to Sneak Attack?

I have some of the same fears myself. I think it depends a lot on the DM, and how fair he is. From 1st level, there are any number of ways a DM can thwart a rogue. A fair DM will not continously throw enemies against the party with Fortification Armor and/or Blur/Displacement/etc. A wizard should obviously be expected to have either Blur or Displacement up at Epic level (or Buckler of Fortification), but if all of his cohorts have Fort Armor or previously cast Blur spells on them...

But like I said before (I think), if you keep getting Fort Armors for treasure, the whole party should have Gems of Seeing in a matter of a few sessions. Also, at Epic level Mord's Disjunction is a nice spell to use against Fighter types with Fort Armor (will save...good bye magic items), or anyone for that matter. Man what a scary spell...I'm not looking forward to seeing that used on me. I'd also like to know about the number of Epic monsters subject to sneak attacks.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

As someone who is working on joining an epic game, and who has played a one-shot, I can say that lots of the epic monsters have *several* defenses each. Trust me, they need it....

I created a Ftr6/Rog31 for an Epic level game in the "In Character" forum (creamsteak's "Constructing the epic level game thread"). This character can get 10 attacks a round, 15d6 sneak attack, coupled with Lingering Damage (subject takes any sneak attack damage from previous round again). So yeah, Fort armor is very important! It is one of the first items I put on all my epic characters due to sneak attack, critical hits, vorpal, and other crit troubles....

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I have some of the same fears myself. I think it depends a lot on the DM, and how fair he is. From 1st level, there are any number of ways a DM can thwart a rogue.

Yeah, I know a DM that is that way. I first played a rogue, and I had very little means of hitting home with sneak attacks. Also, the traps were really dangerous. After the rogue died (hit by a trap that brought him from full HP to -10) I started a Ninja. Still, I can't hit with sneak attack very often, and my only other notable power - diplomacy - is useless, too, as the DM doesn't give a about CHA-based skills, as "they've got to be roleplayed". Well, I'm quitting with the Ninja and play a Berserker. It's not necessarily his unfairnes. He just doesn't know the 3e rules properly (one of those 2e guys) and uses modules. Which he doesn't change a bit to suit the party....

 

[mmu1]

Yeah, I know a DM that is that way. I first played a rogue, and I had very little means of hitting home with sneak attacks. Also, the traps were really dangerous. After the rogue died (hit by a trap that brought him from full HP to -10) I started a Ninja. Still, I can't hit with sneak attack very often, and my only other notable power - diplomacy - is useless, too, as the DM doesn't give a about CHA-based skills, as "they've got to be roleplayed". Well, I'm quitting with the Ninja and play a Berserker. It's not necessarily his unfairnes. He just doesn't know the 3e rules properly (one of those 2e guys) and uses modules. Which he doesn't change a bit to suit the party....

Had a DM once who developed a massive fixation with my rogue character, and decided he was too powerful. It resulted in things like, at 11th level, the party wizard getting a staff of the magi (which was basically an insult - he was doing it because he thought she was really ineffective in combat), and my character, after lobbying for 5 or 6 levels for some Gloves of Dex +4 to upgrade his +2 pair, getting cursed Gloves of Fumbling. Things kind of went downhill from there - enemies would unerringly target me with enchantment spells in preference to any of the party's fighters (Which was not exactly the "smart thinking" on the part of the enemy spellcasters he was trying to explain it as, given that we were all in light armor, and both the ranger and I were dual-wielding - but my character was a freakin' elf, and they were human...), and he repeatedly tried to destroy my gloves of Dex and Cloak of Elvenkind with fire-based spells (only managing to nearly kill the party members with no Evasion and bad reflex saves a couple of times).

What tore it was when a radical change in what we fought happened, and over the course of a couple of adventures, the non-mook encounters were with:

1. A rogue/ninja who my character failed to spot essentially by DM decree so he could sneak attack the party tank 2. A ghost 3. A high level barbarian 4. A dragon 5. Weaponmaster with 30AC AND armor of 100% fortification 6. A nighthshade.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Had a DM once who developed a massive fixation with my rogue character, and decided he was too powerful. It resulted in things like, at 11th level, the party wizard getting a staff of the......

Is he well again?

 

[mmu1]

Is he well again?

I don't know, we don't talk anymore. Something about me stealing some of his players and starting a game of my own.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I don't know, we don't talk anymore. Something about me stealing some of his players and starting a game of my own.

Ah. I just asked cause I wanted to know how hard you hit him .

("I didn't hit him hard. Actually, I didn't hit him at all. But my car got him real good!")