Epic Skills: Broken but HILARIOUS

Sundragon2012 said:
Outside of magic, some things, like squeezing your body through a spot to small for your head is dumb and up to this point has had no place in fantasy where magic WAS NOT involved.

Couldn't a level 50 character have Strength 30 by spending all of his extra ability points on strength?

Help me out here... can someone with 30 Strength lift something that could be considered extraordinary?
 

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Anubis said:
You could jump out of a plane at 30,000 feet and land on your feet without getting hurt in any way (not even a scratch) with a DC 100 Tumble check.

Just for the sake of argument, I suppose I might as well mention that there have been documented cases of humans (in the real world, that is) being sucked out of airplanes, without a parachute, and landing intact, alive, with little more than cuts and scrapes. Maybe some bruises.

The chances are billions to one, but it's possible for people to do things like these skill checks even without proper training- so what's so ridiculous about someone who's trained for centuries being able to swim up a waterfall?

And who the heck is claiming that Aragorn was an epic-level character?
 

Sundragon2012 said:
According to the line of reasoning that assumes a 50th level warrior should be able to, through skill alone, duplicate a feather fall spell also assumes that a 50th level character could sing a lullaby and put his enemies to sleep with a proper DC check because sleep is only a 1st level spell.

Sleep effects 4 HD of creature. If your party has a total of 4 HD or less and the encounter with a 50th level character only puts you to sleep; you got out of their lucky. I have no p[roblem letting a 50th level character use sleep as it will not effect anything they couldn't very easily defeat in many, many ways.

Skills shouldn't allow characters to replicate any first level spell, but the few that are over shadowed by skills I'm not seeing a problem.
 

Ah, yes. Suspension of disbelief is fine when you can handwave it and attribute it to spellcasting, but not when it comes to the nonmagical classes. I will never, ever get this. Look, people. Epic-level spellcasters can do things that make practically ANY superhero (with the exception of the Doctor, who IS an epic-level spellcaster) look rather pathetic. Dragons can fly, giants can walk, unarmed dudes can punch holes in iron golems. It's FANTASY, people. Confining the skill monkeys and fighters to some definition of "realism" while you allow the monsters and spellcasters to run rampant over same is not only unbalanced, but unfair.

Nor, I would argue, is Aragorn, or even Conan, an epic-level character of the power required to pull these stunts off. Nor, for that matter, are the kinds of fantasy in REH's stories or LotR on a level with D&D. If you want to talk about a character in, say, the Lord of the Rings actually being able to pull off those epic skill uses, try Sauron (Bluff) or Saruman (Diplomacy). These are quasi-magical abilities, people, and they are meant to be used in a universe in which REAL magical abilities (ie spells, supernatural abilities, or SLAs) are far, far more powerful. None of these epic skill "uses" is actually particularly USEFUL by the time that PCs get access to them. Almost none of them can be accomplished by anyone below 50th level without serious magical aid, which makes them effectively just like spells anyway.

Finally, it's not like myth and legend *doesn't* set a precedent for many of these. Aesclepius's healing skill was able to bring people back from the dead. The wuxia masters could run up trees and jump from cloud to cloud. Numerous gods and heroes, from Krishna to Hermes to Bugs Bunny, have been able to talk people into doing or thinking practically anything (Bugs could talk Elmer into taking a dip in a pool of acid with no sweat). And Luthien sang MORGOTH (probably a god by D&D standards) a lullaby powerful enough to send him to sleep. None of these are explicitly represented as "spells," and nor do the legends draw a line between the possible and impossible in terms of feats of skill. That's what makes them legends.

You don't like this sort of thing? Fine. But then you should probably not be allowing your spellcasters to obliterate every opponent on the field of battle in six seconds without showing strain, corruption, alteration of the fabric of the universe, or any of the other side effects that stories attribute to magic. I don't recall Theleb K'aarna being able to turn invisible, fly, and destroy an entire army with simple effortless waves of his hands. I don't remember Thoth-Amon being able to spontaneously generate his own demiplane. Does Rackhir the Red Archer have the ability to fire fifty arrows at targets as far away as the horizon within 6 seconds?
 

UltimaGabe said:
Just for the sake of argument, I suppose I might as well mention that there have been documented cases of humans (in the real world, that is) being sucked out of airplanes, without a parachute, and landing intact, alive, with little more than cuts and scrapes. Maybe some bruises.

The chances are billions to one, but it's possible for people to do things like these skill checks even without proper training- so what's so ridiculous about someone who's trained for centuries being able to swim up a waterfall?

I know about that, but those people are lucky. Skill doesn't allow you defy the laws of physics. A Level 100 with 103 ranks of Tumble is GUARANTEED not to have even a scracth, and land on his feet, even if he rolls a 1 on the skill check!

The point . . . Skills in D&D (with the exception of Scry) are all supposed to be natural things that can be done without any mystical help. Except for Scry, any one of us could use any of the skills in the PH. They're "real". D&D is a fix of fantasy and reality. Supernatural abilities and spells are what allow you to do unreal things; using a real skill to do supernatural things is kinda silly.

If I want PCs to be able to do superhero stunts, I break out FCTF. Great read there, by the way.

Anyway, the other part of the point is just how funny it is thinking about doing these things with absolutely no agic whatsoever. Sorry, I'm not buying it. Some, I think, are possible for sure. I can buy the Fonz effect for Disable Device, it's a stretch but I'm cool with that. I could even maybe accept scaling sheer ceilings (as long as the character has suction tools at least), but BALANCING ON A CLOUD IS OUT OF THE QUESTION. If a fighter wants to be in the clouds, give him a fly spell, heh.
 


I'd like to point out that even a level fifty fighter isn't going to be balancing on any clouds. When I read that I was thinking more of the ki masters like monks and sohei (Oriental Adventures) more than anything else. If the fighter does pull that off in his heavy armor I'm impressed. And anyone remember that article a while back in Dragon (I think) that mapped out Aragorn and Gandalf to be round about tenth level?
 

I'd like to point out that at the levels that it takes to balance on clouds, the character in question will have powers similar in power to the gods, if not more so. Realism is out of the question at this point, in my opinion.


But what it really comes down to is how much fun the players are having.
 

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