Epic Skills: Broken but HILARIOUS
- Thread starter Anubis
- Start date
Look, there's a really simple explanation for all this. At extremely high levels, spellcasters simply outclass non-spellcasters. In older editions, this happened by around 15th level. (Lower for thieves.) In 3.x, it happens in the 20th-30th level range. So, there are three basic options (assuming you wish to stick to D&D):
1) Tell the fighters and rogues to suck it up, and deal with being second-class (heh!) characters to the wizards and clerics dominating the epic-level play.
2) Don't play at epic levels-when everyone gets to 20th, it's time to retire the characters and start again at 1st level.
3) Let the skills and feats chosen by the fighters and rogues accomplish quasi-magical effects at these really high levels, so they can continue to shine in comparison to the casters, at least part of the time.
Option 1) really sucks, period. Options 2) and 3) are both good, but each has its own problems. Option 2) can be frustrating for players who have grown really attached to their characters and would like to extend their playing lives. Option 3) can be frustrating to suspension of disbelief. Personally, I'd go with option 2), especially if option 3) is that incredibly irritating to you--but that's no reason to mock it. If you're going to play at epic levels, especially way beyond 20th level, and you want to continue to include skill-based rather than magic-based characters in your game, you just have to take extreme steps to keep these characters viable. And the extreme steps WOTC took in their epic rules are pretty decent ones. If you can't cope with them, then don't play epic games-they're certainly not for everyone (myself included).
1) Tell the fighters and rogues to suck it up, and deal with being second-class (heh!) characters to the wizards and clerics dominating the epic-level play.
2) Don't play at epic levels-when everyone gets to 20th, it's time to retire the characters and start again at 1st level.
3) Let the skills and feats chosen by the fighters and rogues accomplish quasi-magical effects at these really high levels, so they can continue to shine in comparison to the casters, at least part of the time.
Option 1) really sucks, period. Options 2) and 3) are both good, but each has its own problems. Option 2) can be frustrating for players who have grown really attached to their characters and would like to extend their playing lives. Option 3) can be frustrating to suspension of disbelief. Personally, I'd go with option 2), especially if option 3) is that incredibly irritating to you--but that's no reason to mock it. If you're going to play at epic levels, especially way beyond 20th level, and you want to continue to include skill-based rather than magic-based characters in your game, you just have to take extreme steps to keep these characters viable. And the extreme steps WOTC took in their epic rules are pretty decent ones. If you can't cope with them, then don't play epic games-they're certainly not for everyone (myself included).
Sledge
First Post
The thing to remember is that these are epic skills. Most fantasy doesn't even approach epic. What is magic if not something that is beyond our ability to understand. These extraordinary skills represent the characters knowing things that are beyond our actual understanding. One could even call them fantastic skills. If you're having trouble with them, then your thinking too mundane.
RangerWickett
Legend
Anubis said:
By the way, he's talking about Four-Color to Fantasy. I appreciate the compliment, but I'm going to side with the group who say that skills should be able to do the impossible.
Hell, honestly, if I could rewrite D&D for 4th edition, I'd make the impossible s**t start happening at 20th level or so, not 50th.
1st level is for children, like if you want to do adventures like in The Black Cauldron. Spellcasters can surprise people, mess with superstitious people, and maybe do some zapping, but nothing debilitating.
3rd level is what a typical adult should be. Your starting hero should be somewhere around here. Think Frodo and the other hobbits. Spellcasters are like Willow, only able to pull over the most minor spells.
6th level is an honest hero, who has faced some local foes, maybe even killed a few giants or trolls. This is like the Dragonlance characters at the start of the trilogy. Spellcasters might have one or two good attack spells, and actually start getting a reputation of power among the general populace.
10th level is when you're a clear bad-ass. This is like Legolas and Aragorn level at the start of the trilogy.
15th level is when you're a legend. Nearly everyone should have heard of your exploits. You can pull off the occasional over-the-top stunt, like climbing an elephant and killing everyone in the howdah. You can dodge bullets
20th level is when you start getting epics written about you. You can grapple giant serpents, swim across the whale road, or trick a goddess into the material plane so you can off her. You don't have to dodge bullets.
Lazybones
Adventurer
When the ELH was being developed, I'd posted a list of suggested epic feats, things like Cleave Town, and Epic Far Shot (no range penalty if the target is on the same continent). I was being silly, of course, and I think that the stuff that did get in there is only slightly less so. I think Enamel hit on the key point, however; if you and the other players are enjoying it, then more power to you. Personally when I actually saw the ELH in a bookstore and paged through it, I knew almost immediately that I wasn't interested in playing a campaign that went into those levels.
Anubis said:
Higher level characters, without magic or items - just with their own ever increasing skill and ability - become more and more superhuman. By the time you even hit level 20, you've got characters who are more potentially more skilled than anyone on earth and can do things that would set new bars in the Guiniss books of world records. Just the average high level party.
So, saying that they've left human ability behind in the dust before level 20, what happens when you're further skilled? Nothing? Because puny humans of reality can't do it?
Maybe the problem isn't with what Epic level characters can do, but instead with what you expect from Epic level characters.
I expect that Epic level characters are reaching further and further from what human capability is.
And people are still saying that many of the skill DCs like 100 and 150 most likely won't get hit without special boosters. So then what is the problem?
If you have a 65th level character with enough skill to hit a 100dc, then we're not playing in the realm of normal human ability.
If you have a 25th level character who is using magic items & spells & psionics & whatever else to hit a DC100, then whats the problem? You don't mind magic/psi/whatever, just when humans can do it by themselves.
Personally I have a problem with the Skill system not giving enough "more than human" bang for the price. Contested skills aside, most of the skills don't really do anything other than hit their DC. And once you can hit the highest DC, why keep buying ranks in the skill? In case the GM makes up a new rank of inhumanly insane DC difficulty?
Like that game Iron Heros, I think you should be able to make your skill do extra things at the cost of a higher DC. So, I think having higher DC ranks in the Epic book is a good thing in my eyes.
It gives me an idea of what inhumanly skilled characters are capable of.
kigmatzomat
Legend
Amazingly, I'm unconcerned by the DC100 events. My 19th level players can, with magical augmentation, end up with a roll of 50 in a few highly specialized cases. I figure it's taken 5 years of game to get to 50, if it takes another 5 to get to 100 I'll be okay.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
FWIW, Beowulf brags about swimming several miles through the ocean wearing his full armor and carrying a sword while fighting off sea monsters. That sounds pretty epic to me. The same is true of a lot of other feats mentioned in the sagas or the Maboingen. Some of the celtic heros were supposed to have pulled of some pretty insane stuff. How about relatively more modern legends? How much profession miner do you have to have before you can outdig a steam engine? (Apparently as much as John Henry though you should have a bit more than him if you plan to survive the exertion).
A lot of the stuff that you're talking about doesn't happen in the Lord of the Rings, but it does happen in the ancient tales that also provide inspiration for D&D. Heck, it happens in crouching tiger, hidden dragon.
A lot of the stuff that you're talking about doesn't happen in the Lord of the Rings, but it does happen in the ancient tales that also provide inspiration for D&D. Heck, it happens in crouching tiger, hidden dragon.
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