Eric Noah's Info

Frostmarrow, your list may be wild speculation, but it doesn't stray too far from where things stand right now. I give you a solid six on the plausibilometer.

Even better, there are actually parts of that that I can see would be desirable. :)
-blarg
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Wulf Ratbane said:
Exactly! I don't care how high the production values are or what kind of economies of scale Wizard$ can muster, I want my books crappy and cheap!

The sooner we can eliminate this evil "profit motive" from the publication of RPGs, the sooner they'll really start to flourish.

ehm...
sorry, i know that RPG books are luxury items, and that production prices has gone up, blah blah blah...

i would *still* rather buy a black and white book than a full colour one.

i would *still* rather buy a single normal-paper 34$ book (actually, 22$ from amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/15...5614/ref=pd_bbs_3/103-6294374-4839044?ie=UTF8) that gives me a complete game, than 3 "deluxe" glossy-paper books, at 30$ each (again, amazon has them for around 20$).

i would *still* rather buy a game that is really 100% modular (GURPS, hero), or much simpler (C&C), or that is written in a less academic fashion (WoD books), or that gives me something more than the dry rules and a couple of hints about a generic setting that is not supported outside RPGA or magazines (WHFRP). even if the cost the same.

the evil "profit motive" as you call it, is there because some companies are not attentive to the needs of their customers. let's name names. palladium: how many times have you heard people demanding a umber of fixing to their system? wotc: they produce the 3.5 to incorporate errata and "get the system better" and then they produce a new errata within a month the new core books are out.

everyone has their own opinion about the market, their own gripes about this or that publisher, and their own tastes. running an RPG company doesn't give you the right to make bitter would-be-ironic comments about what a single customer wants.
the guy wants cheaper books. i want them, too. and, from what i hear around various forums, we're not alone.

now you, as a publisher, can:
1. do what you can to produce cheaper books.
2. ignore that request, and hope that your production values will make us shell our hard earned money (we work to pay our bills, too, you know? it's not like my mum buys me an RPG book for christmas).
3. make out-of-place comments to show to the world how cool you are and lose customers for good.

should i assume you made up your mind already?

just a couple more thoughts.

when people complained that 3e was too complex for what it offered, on these boards, the vast majority of the replies were rather offensive. you couldn't discuss the merits of the system without some smart ass coming and starting an edition war, or something like that.

i can't remember how many times i've read that these demands couldn't be sustenable because "the market is buying D&D" ans so "the market wants complexity". then C&C comes out. surprise! maybe it's not doing as well as D&D (how couldn't, realistically?) but it's doing well enough for third parties producing stuff for it. maybe, then, the whole market didn't want 354 expensive deluxe books filled with new exciting feat and new mind blowing spells.

maybe part of the market wanted an updated simple version of the game they have been playing since 1974. one that made those old books usable without hours of conversion work. one that could be grasped by a 5 year old in 3 minutes of explanations. one that could allow you to create a character and start playing in 20 minutes, rather than 1 hour.

i'd like to think that there is a lesson here. unfortunately, from what i have seen dealing with various publishers for requests, or clarifications, or orders, the lession has been already learnt long long ago by those who didn't really need it.
 

I think Frostmarrow's compilation is highly credible.

Not that it'll get my money, I have been considering reducing spending on this hobby now for some months. The arrival 4e will save me a lot of money, I hope.

On the other hand, should my son get interested, and switch his sensors from Warhammer 40K to 4e, then I guess I'd have to stick around a while longer... :P
 


remember that one important aspect of all "gaming crack" stuff is not just collectibility but also POWER INFLATION...
...so, 4E might feature:

level-linked books - you want to level up? Buy more books!
e.g.: DMG4E, D&D4E-Rulebook, PHB4E-Level1-5, PHB4E-Level6-10, PHB4E-Level11-15, PHB4E-Level16-20, PHB4E-Level21-25, MM4E-Level1-5, MM4E-Level6-10, MM4E-Level11-15, MM4E-Level16-20 etc.

Equipment and Spells - beyond a "common" set provided with the rulebook - are sold as cards in booster packs. Casting a spell or using a special item requires the player to "play" the equivalent card. The "treasure" gained in game are cards the DM actually has to give to the players.
 

Spell said:
ehm...
sorry, i know that RPG books are luxury items, and that production prices has gone up, blah blah blah...

i would *still* rather buy a black and white book than a full colour one.

i would *still* rather buy a single normal-paper 34$ book (actually, 22$ from amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/15...5614/ref=pd_bbs_3/103-6294374-4839044?ie=UTF8) that gives me a complete game, than 3 "deluxe" glossy-paper books, at 30$ each (again, amazon has them for around 20$).

But the market has already shown that you're in the minority. Remember the ooos and ahhhs over M&M's "production values"?

A lot of that was knockout art, in full color on glossy paper.

Marquee books, at marquee prices, get priority dollars. They get bought first, the books made on the cheap, eh, maybe folks get them when they get them.

Color art, glossy paper and high visibility licenses are the signs of companies competing in an ever more competitive marketplace over an amount of money that has been, frankly, shrinking.

We might wish it wasn't this way. But it is.

Chuck
 

green slime said:
I think Frostmarrow's compilation is highly credible.

Not that it'll get my money, I have been considering reducing spending on this hobby now for some months. The arrival 4e will save me a lot of money, I hope.

On the other hand, should my son get interested, and switch his sensors from Warhammer 40K to 4e, then I guess I'd have to stick around a while longer... :P

By the time of 4E there is always 40KRP. :D

Needless to say the scratch ticket stats aren't all that plausible. But I do think the rest is.
 
Last edited:

A'koss said:
We've been hearing from for months and months from the WotC staff that business, if anything, is great. Now this rumor that only their minis lines and Magic make them any money? That doesnt' sound right.

And I still say that if D&D as an RPG was doing as well as the company continues to claim then Charles Ryan would still be brand manager. I can't see how, if things were so great, the company would want to dump the person in charge of the brand.
 

Vigilance said:
But the market has already shown that you're in the minority.

i know that. fair enough.

what i don't know, and don't understand, is how this makes ok for what really is a random publisher by my book to throw :):):):) in my face like that.

he doesn't want my money? good. it's not like i came rattling my bones in his house or something. damn, these are GENERAL boards! not company related.

there's another thing i don't understand. i read the first three pages of this thread. lots and lots complaining about the "smaller packages" and the miniature focus.

if you accept wulf's idea that what's best of D&D is to become "bigger than jesus", then you have to welcome a warhammer-quest type of game. miniatures are cool. miniatures are collectible. miniatures catch the imagination of young kids.

smaller packages: why spending 90$ today and play for a lifetime, instead of spending 20$ on the basic book, and then buying the "advanced procedures" books when and *if* i want to play with more options? why do i need 300+ monsters, if i can play just as well with 50? heck, those rare monsters's miniatures are hard to find!

moreover, who wants to read an encyclopaedia to start playing? us old players are, in fact, the minority. people wants something immediately rewarding, something that can be played after reading 10-20 pages.

campaign setting? to the hell with it! a couple of notes, and here we go! more power to the DM who wants to customise the campaign! more power to try other settings, taken from novels or films! less useless information to read (who wants to know about Waterdeep if i want to play in mulhorand?), more space for rules and, most importantly, art!

now, don't get me wrong. i don't advocate that WotC will do all of this, nor i think that the average gamer would be happy to play what really becomes a game where you "play with soldiers" as "mundanes" would say (besides, who invented the term "mundanes2? is the most elitist head-up-our-arse term that i ever heard coming from a cultural niche group).

but if you firmly believes that bigger D&D = good, then so be it. leave to smaller companies the doubtful privilege of catering to the needs of smaller markets.

personally, i believe that there is a way to make everyone happy. in a way, it's a business designed that TSR created in the 1980s.
have a basic D&D game aimed at younger players. with smaller books. with miniatures. with easier rules.
then create and advanced D&D game for those who want to buy 3 core books, who want more detailed rules, more flexibility, and so on.

but of course TSR is evil and stupid because it ran out of business and wanted D&D small, and i am stupid and deprecable only to suggest that.

naah, better poking fun at me and pretending that i am too much of a small part of the market to even care. you know, that is actually the truth. compared to the millions of young kids buying magic cards, or duel master cards, or miniatures, me, you, and all of the people on these forums are nothing. if we all stopped playing D&D today, wizards would probably care very little, as long as they can replace us with someone else.

but then, why care? why reading these posts? why bothering with a reply?
 

Well, the idea of it being more minis focused makes me think Im not going to want anything to do with it. I dont use minis, and I never will. The bits of info from the rumor make it sound like its going to be a collectible minis/RPG hybrid.

Ill wait and see, but the phrases "even more miniatures-centric" and "Much smaller bundles of game info, packaged and sold separately" by themselves are enough to make me run screaming from any game. 3E is as miniatures-centric as I can tolerate in a role-playing game.

If it makes them more money then I wish them luck, but I probably wont be along for the ride. I switched from 1E to 3E because it was such an improvent in flexibility and rules standardization. I have 3.5 now, and I dont need an upgrade unless its as vast an improvement over 3.5 as 3E was over 1E.
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top