Eric Noah's Info

[Umbran]

A smaller, leaner company, with lower expenses, could generate a higher profit. That's what I'm getting at.

It's basic for business. As businesses grow, some things that they used to do become harder and harder to do cost-effectively enough to generate a profit.

Which is, I suspect, exactyly why Hasbro itself does not meddle directly in WotC production. By all reports, Hasbro is not involved in the day-to-day operation and decisions. Thus, whatever higher overhead that Hasbro has does not directly impact WotC products. They get to keep their small-company efficiency and make use of Hasbro's economy of scale at the same time. I don't doubt this has helped the short-term sales of the game considerably. But it does make the game vulnerable to things like we are worrying about now.

While there are certainly exceptions, I'm going to have to disagree with the "harder to do cost-effectively enough to generate a profit", unless you're talking about a company that is on the whole moribund and ready to die. The problem is not in generating profit - by all reports, the D&D brand, and RPG products in general, are generating profit. We have no indication that Hasbro is losing money on rpg products in an absolute sense.

The question facing Hasbro is not, "is D&D profitable?" The question is, "Is D&D as profitable as other things we could do with the same resources?" Which is a better bet for them, giving operating budget to D&D, or Monopoly, or any one of over 130 other brands they own. In economic terms, while D&D isn't actually losing money, it may be a form of opportunity cost for Hasbro.

Wulf is correct that D&D needs to be with a company that wants it to be wildly successful. What he seems to miss is the difference between companies for whom that wild success would only bring the brand up to par with normal everyday business for them, and companies for whom wild success would be... wild!

 

[Vigilance]

Looking at the Games Workshop business model is instructive. EVERY edition is met with wailing and gnashing the teeth. They blithely ignore the grognard and their retail business model focuses on teens and under.

It's not a perfect analogy because the actual bulk of a player's investment is in the miniatures, and the miniatures can be used from edition to edition; but the rulebooks themselves... revise, reset, resell.

Like clockwork.

Let's benchmark the GW business model against the 4e rumors:

-New edition already in the works? Check.
-Miniatures based? Check.
-Smaller bundles of game info, packaged and sold separately (codexes)? Check.
-Outsourcing the RPG? Check.

Yeah, WOTC didn't come up with this busniess model out of whole cloth. A lot of RPG companies have been adopting it because it's like, you know, a REAL business model, as opposed to the old-school RPG company way of doing things which seemed to be "maybe we can stay in business 6 more months".

Also, any gnashing of teeth about frequent updates of information in small doses... um... would that be like getting only the info to run levels 1-4 and only DM advice/monsters for Dungeons in a little blue box?

Sounds familiar to me.

Also sounds like a better business model already, since the players are also effectively buying the DMG and the MM.

 

[Spell]

doh! sorry!

 

[EricNoah]

I know Ryan Dancey is lurking around here somewhere. I'd be curious to hear what he as to say about a 4th edition w/regards to a) the rollout (i.e. should 4E's rollout be done the same way 3E's rollout was done -- a big announcement, a year of releasing info in digestible chunks, three main books over three months, etc.), and b) the OGL/d20 thing (does he think 4E will still essentially be "the d20 system" and has it accomplished what he thought it would -- extending the network of players and DMs).

 

[BryonD]

1E
2E was basically an upgrade of what 1E was already heading toward.
2.5E Skills & Powers
3E was a fresh revamp
3.5E updated a few things, most notably, the whole ECL system
4E, in theory, should be an upgrade of 3.x, rather than a whole new revamp, especially with so little time between products (compared to the others).

I'm still not ready to jump to any conclusions. It could certainly happen. But it could still easily be 2 or even (I kinda doubt) 3 years off.

But, if it does happen soon my guess is that it will be a re-tool of 3X much more comparable to the 1E to 2E change than the 2E to 3E change.

For one, if they want 4E to draw away from 3E, the bar is set very high.
For another, I agree that minis is a big big part of the overall strategy. Not just RPG, but wider than that. And I don't think they plan to re-tool DDM any time soon. So I bet DDM will stay the same and a hypothetical 4E will still offer cross-over appeal with this existing product.

I'd think they would significantly re-tool stuff, but it would have a clear resemblance.
Toss out a core race or two. Add in a race or two.
Re-work core classes. Make classes a lot more customizable, for example.
Maybe toss the monk or the paladin (over to PClass) and add scout and/or warlock.
Tweak spellcasting and BAB progressions. Tweak spells and feats. Whatever.
A bunch of simple stuff that could make it a clear new edition. (for example, people do nto confuse AE with 3X, but clearly they are the same fundamental game)

Anyway, this would be much bigger changes than 3.5 was. And 3.5 allowed them to start over re-cycling all the standard splat books and supplements. Six months after 4E you get the FR and Eberron handbooks with the worlds re-visioned to include the new versions of wizards and the inclusion of warlocks as a core base. For example.

It seems as close as you can get to "best of both worlds" from a seller PoV.

 

[Spell]

It appears you are taking it personally and that is causing you to miss the point.

look, i did take it personally and maybe i haven't made my point clear enough.

what i was trying to say is:

1. i don't think it's polite or nice or productive to reply with ironical remarks to a couple of guys that were basically asking for something they wanted.
do they want lushier books? big discounts for cheeseburgers with their copy of PHB? free books? good for them. they are just stating a simple fact: "if i pay, i want X".

now, i can ignore him, reply and explain him that my experience says that what he wants is not what other 99% people want, or take note and check if it's feasible or not. to the life of mine, i can't see how venting out one's sense of humour like Wulf did is helpful for him or his business, especially since he says that he himself offer high quality products for less.

it's like me giving to charity, and then making fun of someone who i just met on the street who says people should give to charity. what's the point?


and now for something completely different:
2. one must decide whether making D&D 4th edition the kind of collectible boardgame that it seems to emerge from the little that Eric Noah said is a good thing or not.

if one accepts that making D&D bigger is beneficial to the hobby ipso facto, then i don't really understand the panic or the dispear. that kind of game *will* be bigger. i said it myself, the totality of people on these boards are a minority themselves, so WotC is 100% right if they ignored us altogether. why bother with a reply, then?

D&D will attract new players, they will buy all the WotC books, someone will look for something different and BANG! they will buy books for the same small press publisher that cater for minority markets. maybe, in time, the small publisher will become respected and average sized, and than, who knows?, maybe bigger than WotC.

if one sees this course of action as beneficial, then what's the problem? why complaining? people can play other games, and D&D 4th edition won't turn all the back catalog from previous edition into ashes.

would you complain if you had a cadillac and they decided to put out a new model, completely different, that you don't like?

if, on the other hand, one thinks that keeping the essence of what D&D has been for 30 years is what is important, then selling comes second.
the people who are manifesting their unhappiness with the game should make an effort to contact WotC. again, voicing their thoughts here is not terribly beneficial to anyone, since these are not WotC boards. even if they were, i believe game designers and their bosses have better things to do than reading every post on the official boards.


As for me:
1. i have decided that i don't care for D&D 4th edition long long ago.
2. i play GURPS, WHFRP, the real D&D (the red box one), AD&D and, if someone else is GMing, a buch of other d20 games (not D&D3e).
3. i do not advocate that i have any insightful idea on how the market is or should be.
4. i do not think that hasbro is evil for wanting more money.
5. i think that hasbro assumes that RPG games and gamers are like other boardgame gamers. (and maybe they are right.)
6. i am not a game designer/ publisher, and, most importantly
7. i don't care if i am the only person wanting a certain thing: i will buy only those games i am at least 90% happy with. if i want something bringing less "happyness" i just need to look at my shelves. if i won the lottery, quit my life and decide to do nothing but modifying RPG books to fit my needs, i could spend months without resurfacing.
8. i really have too much time to kill today if i am still writing.

 

[BryonD]

look, i did take it personally

well stop and you'll be better off.

and maybe i haven't made my point clear enough.

It was kinda overshadowed by you taking things to personally. Not being inflamatory, I really mean it as an honest critic.

what i was trying to say is:

1. if i read a post of someone asking for what he wants, i don't think it's polite or nice or productive to reply with ironical remarks. does he want lushier books? big discounts for cheeseburgers with his copy of PHB? free books? good for him. he's just stating a simple fact: "if i pay, i want X".
now, i can ignore him, reply and explain him that my experience says that what he wants is not what other 99% people want, or take note and check if it's feasible or not.
i can't see how venting out one's sense of humour like Wulf did is helpful for him or his business, especially since he says that he himself offer high quality products for less.

it's like me giving to charity, and then making fun of someone who i just met on the street who says people should give to charity. what's the point?

I disagree with your assessment. And if you would take his comments as comments on the situation rather than personal comments on you, then it would be better taken.

2. one must decide whether making D&D 4th edition the kind of collectible boardgame that it seems to emerge from the little that Eric Noah said is a good thing or not.

if one accepts that making D&D bigger is beneficial to the hobby no matter what, then i don't really understand the panic or the dispear. that kind of game *will* be bigger. as i myself said it, the totality of people on these boards are a minority themselves, so WotC is 100% right if they ignored us altogether. why bother with a reply, then?

if, on the other hand, one thinks that keeping the essence of what D&D has been for 30 years, then selling comes second, and the people who are manifesting their unhappiness with the game should make an effort to contact WotC. again, voicing their thoughts here is not terribly beneficial to anyone, since these are not WotC boards. even if they were, i believe game designers and their bosses have beter things to do than reading every post on the official boards.


As for me:
1. i have decided that i don't care for D&D long long ago.
2. i play GURPS, WHFRP, and, if someone else is GMing, a buch of other d20 games.
3. i do not advocate that i have any insightful idea on how the market is or should be.
4. i am not a game designer/ publisher, and, most importantly
5. i don't care if i am the only person wanting a certain thing: i will buy only those games i am at least 90% happy with. if i want something bringing less "happyness" i just need to look at my shelves. if i won the lottery, quit my life and decide to do nothing but modifying RPG books to fit my needs, i could spend months without resurfacing.
6. i really have too much time to kill today if i am still writing.

You are confusing your personal opinion with market reality.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

to the life of mine, i can't see how venting out one's sense of humour like Wulf did is helpful for him or his business, especially since he says that he himself offer high quality products for less.

The Snark is provided free of charge.

I like to provide a little something extra for every Bad Axe customer.

I believe the Snark currently enjoys a 4.15 star average review, like most of my products, although it has not yet been nominated for an ENnie.

 

[Clefton Twain]

Hmmm...

You know what I hope? I hope WotC doesn't listen to our babbling too closely. Because I'm not sure "we" really know what "we" want. They should do what they think is best for the game. If they can come up with a clever way to have their cake and eat it too, more power to them. I'm sort of realizing that no matter what direction they take, a) I'm pretty satisfied with the game I have, and the scads of supplemental and third-party materials I have; and b) I will watch with great interest what they do next because I'm simply curious about it. Who knows... maybe a year or two from now I'll be playing the latest and greatest D&D with or without their hardware and having a blast.

You're probably right. Well, I *know* you're right that they will do what they think is best for the game. I just truly hope they consider very closely what they do. 4th edition may attract new fans but I hope not at the expense of avid gamers. At that point, profitability (which is arguably in the toilet anyway) will go down.

I think I'm in the same boat as you--I've got so much material right now I don't know what to do with it. Some of it is not worth using as toilet paper but 80% of it is worthwhile, and a lot of that is untapped for me.

The one thing that they have to realize is that there is a limit to how many products people can/will buy, especially when the quality of numerous products seems to be going downhill (I think so, anyway). I can't afford to continue to buy the same sourcebook over and over, simply updated with a few things for each edition. I don't even think I've got the space for all those books.

Since it's all conjecture, we're probably all getting worked up for no reason right now anyway. Time will tell. Hopefully there'll be an announcement at GenCon. I can't go this year so I'll have to keep my eyes glued to the messageboards.

--CT

 

[Vigilance]

The one thing that they have to realize is that there is a limit to how many products people can/will buy, especially when the quality of numerous products seems to be going downhill (I think so, anyway). I can't afford to continue to buy the same sourcebook over and over, simply updated with a few things for each edition. I don't even think I've got the space for all those books.

I dont think there IS a limit to what people will buy, except what interests them or does not interest them. The number of people who say "I buy so many books I could never use them" which translates to any beancounter as "I will buy books I will never use out of a collecting/completist impulse" actually gives them MORE incentive to make new editions.