Even Steven Array

[keterys]

Our first game used standard array. It went fine. As long as people know in advance that they're using an array, it's not a problem.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Personally, if the issue is dump stats, I think fixed arrays are a rather draconian way of dealing with that issue. Better to disallow stats below 10 - though if you want people to have the same distribution of higher states, this will require you to make it a 23 or 24 point buy.

That said, I like having a dump stat - I find that for roleplaying purposes, what stat you suck at offers a lot more opportunities than the one you are good at. One of my favorite RP characters is a low-int paladin I had in 3.5, and I've heard of other great RPs based on other low stats, such as a low strength magic user whose player emphasized how she could barely drag the shovel over to help with digging. YMMV.

 

[Theroc]

Another would be offering a beefed-up array that could not be bought for 22 points. For example, I might offer a group of players 22-point-knock-yourself-out-buy or an Even Steven 16/15/14/12/12/11 array (28 points). Does anyone think that array would really require rebalacing adventures or monsters? Actually, I think that's a great use for starting arrays in combination with point-buy; getting access to more expensive but less optimal builds.

I don't have any particularly creative input, but as a player, I would be very, very prone to choosing your array over point buy. The fact that it has a higher point buy value tells me my character will be more well-rounded, if not quite as objectively powerful in one area.

A cool houseruled bonus would also be something that I'd like, probably.

 

[Kurtomatic]

As a player, I do not like the idea of being forced a particular array upon me. Suppose you have two players who build characters using the standard point buy. Most likely both will use a different set of scores. Now, tell these players to swap their ability scores and rebuild their character. Do you really think either of them will be happy?

...

There is no single array that will not upset anyone. If I wanted to play a multiclassed character, I will need to have two good ability scores. On top of that, depending on the feats and secondary scores I want, the flexibility of point buy is very important. Another player who wants to play a single class character with very little need for secondary scores (swordmage comes to mind) will have a totally different set of abilities.

Wow, until I invite you into my personal game, I don't why you'd be upset about anything. You know people (not including me, yet) do actually play the game this way? My initial post is semi-hypothetical anyway. Seriously, I never once suggested forcing anyone, much less my own regular gaming group, with using only the standard array. If I'd posted this in House Rules, I doubt I'd be made out as some Scrooge DM, but I was looking for the practical limits of chargen as written, so I posted here.

At the risk of falling into cliche', did you even read where I just suggested using optional arrays to supplement point-buy?

That said, I like having a dump stat - I find that for roleplaying purposes, what stat you suck at offers a lot more opportunities than the one you are good at. One of my favorite RP characters is a low-int paladin I had in 3.5, and I've heard of other great RPs based on other low stats, such as a low strength magic user whose player emphasized how she could barely drag the shovel over to help with digging. YMMV.

I like dump stats just fine.., in moderation. When everyone at the table has a monkey on their back, its not as funny. And no one can pretend that this is somehow a real sacrifice on their part; 4E clearly rewards specialization. If the PHB let you go below 8, you'd see people doing that too.

In fact the reason why the mandatory dump stat mindset is so popular in some circles is that 22-point-buy is a very tight squeeze to begin with. So the easy way out is to up the point-buy pool. My last 3.5 campaign was 45-point build; I'm not afraid of turning the dogs loose when I want to. But that really will inflate character power to a degree I'm not comfortable with in 4E, and cause re-jiggering of encounters. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm trying to staying within (or pretty close to) the factory performance envelope.

The 18/8 ability score range is the path of least resistance in 4E chargen, and I'd like to explore my options as a DM in trying to offer modestly compelling alternatives for the sake of variety, if nothing else. However, I wanted to start with a simpler topic, and increase the scope of discussion from there. D'oh!

 

[Kurtomatic]

I don't have any particularly creative input, but as a player, I would be very, very prone to choosing your array over point buy. The fact that it has a higher point buy value tells me my character will be more well-rounded, if not quite as objectively powerful in one area.

A cool houseruled bonus would also be something that I'd like, probably.

That's cool! So the next question is, did I just add too much sweeter?

The trick is offering generalists, multi-classers, and MAD sufferers in general a little relief, without altering the power curve too much. I know more than a couple of players who prefer those sorts of characters, but who are also serious optimizers that won't compromise performance. I'd like to give them some interesting decisions, which means the 18/8 specialist approach needs to remain a good choice too.

 

[Nifft]

I like dump stats just fine.., in moderation. When everyone at the table has a monkey on their back, its not as funny. And no one can pretend that this is somehow a real sacrifice on their part; 4E clearly rewards specialization. If the PHB let you go below 8, you'd see people doing that too.

Agreed. Of course, that's exactly why the designers decided to allow at most one stat of 8, and never lower. It's a valid choice (between 8 and 10 for your one potential dump stat).

4e seems to expect you to do the minimal obvious optimization, but its cleverness is in not allowing much more than that. So the variance between doing the least reasonable amount of work and the maximum possible optimization is small enough, both PCs can enjoy the same game.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Theroc]

That's cool! So the next question is, did I just add too much sweeter?

The trick is offering generalists, multi-classers, and MAD sufferers in general a little relief, without altering the power curve too much. I know more than a couple of players who prefer those sorts of characters, but who are also serious optimizers that won't compromise performance. I'd like to give them some interesting decisions, which means the 18/8 specialist approach needs to remain a good choice too.

Funny you should mention a player who likes MAD and MC-type characters but refuse to compromise performance much at all. I was tempted to play a homebrewed PrC on LEW (3.5) which required Int for learning certain abilities, wisdom for how many of those they could use a day, and charisma for the save DC's, from prerequisites that assume a spellcaster... I'd say I often find I like concepts that suffer from MAD.

I don't always do them, but I often like optimizing flavorful ideas so I can have fun with the concept without dragging a party down.

I don't know if it's too much sweeter, as I'm not a 4th edition expert. I've done about 1-2 full encounters at level 1.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Another would be offering a beefed-up array that could not be bought for 22 points. For example, I might offer a group of players 22-point-knock-yourself-out-buy or an Even Steven 16/15/14/12/12/11 array (28 points). Does anyone think that array would really require rebalacing adventures or monsters? Actually, I think that's a great use for starting arrays in combination with point-buy; getting access to more expensive but less optimal builds.

My view on this is that the 28 point array is objectively better than a 22 point buy. Denying someone an 18 pre-racial in their primary stat is not going to offset getting the extra points in secondaries, which can really make a difference at higher levels when you want certain feat combinations. Sure you lose a point of to-hit, but the guy with the overall better stats is probably going to make one less trade off on feats later on that will balance that.

It isn't a big difference, but anyone who regularly optimizes will probably jump at it. I think the theory that optimizers take an 18 typically is not really born out in practice. There are a lot of reasons not to do so which are good logical min/max reasons. This is true even for fairly single stat dependent builds when you start factoring in feats, a bit of MCing for some trick, etc.

In other words, you'll probably see a decent amount fewer characters starting out with an 18 doing it this way.

I also have a tendency to agree with people who LIKE dump stats. Call me old fashioned, but back in the old days you had to deal with having some sub-par ability scores on most characters. It was always fun. And really 8 isn't all that low. An 8 int guy is a bit on the slow side, he's not totally stupid, etc. He just has an area he's a bit weak in. It makes the characters a bit more true to life. Real people generally have weaknesses, even if they are heroes.

 

[Nifft]

I think the theory that optimizers take an 18 typically is not really born out in practice.

18 pre-racial (i.e. 20 post-racial) or 18 post-racial (i.e. 16 pre-racial)?

Most optimizers advocate 18 post-racial, unless you can justify shafting your secondary and tertiary ability scores. It's certainly possible to justify a 20, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Kurtomatic]

My view on this is that the 28 point array is objectively better than a 22 point buy...

18 pre-racial (i.e. 20 post-racial) or 18 post-racial (i.e. 16 pre-racial)?

Most optimizers advocate 18 post-racial, unless you can justify shafting your secondary and tertiary ability scores. It's certainly possible to justify a 20, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

Thanks, I appreciate those well considered opinions! I was referring to pre-racial 18s, and my perceptions may be skewed by a limited dataset, which is why I like reality checking here.