Examples of Power Creep?

[Darkness]

I'm not getting how options are overpowered. Overpowered between PCs? So what? When are you supposed to be at each other's throats? Overpowered versus the DM? Impossible, since the DM is the final arbiter on what's allowed to be in the game, and has even more options available than the players.

If the danger that's required to challenge PC A would be deadly to PCs B, C and D, you have a problem - either PC A walks over all your encounters, or the rest of the party is slaughtered.

Lesser cases of this extreme exist, obviously.

 

[Razz0putin]

well I voted that their is power creep although to be fair I can't exactly think of an example. So I will admit this may be more of the way that things seem. I agree with Henry that my phantom creep may be just my knowledge of human nature. Also a freind of mine pointed out you wouldn't see gaming companies putting out weaker and weaker rules (well you might but you probably wouldn't see it for long As Zappo said more options is the point of new books. With all of that said I don't believe my phantom creep is anything that can't be handled as long as one keeps an eye on it. It's nothing compared to what has happened in editions past.

 

[hero4hire]

Hmmm How about a Changeling Barbarian/Cleric/Warshaper who casts Bull's Strength, using his Shapechange, and then Rages? He can have a 30 Strength!

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Actually that's not entirely true MoogleEmpMog. Complete Divine isn't 1st generation 3.5, it came out well after complete warrior.
Also I'm curious what you think about the races of the wild arcane hierophant. Stacks with the Mystic theurge and allows 9th/9th spells with full wildshape, full familiar, full animal companion and cast in any armor allowed to druids (like um, dragon hide full plate).
I can't see a single way this PrC isn't better than the Urge. At all.

Needless to say we are again, on a different wavelength to determine what's balanced.

Complete Divine is post Complete Warrior, but WotC has printed Complete Arcane and Complete Adventurer since then, which are clearly not following an upward trend from Complete Divine, or even using it as a new standard. CA and CV are balanced to core, if not underpowered.

I haven't seen the AH yet. If he's indeed all that (full wildshape on a spellcasting multiclass PrC? ) then he'll be the first 3.5 PrC I can see as a serious power spike. The MT (eh, I like your shorthand, the Urge, better ) is weak, but that would address many of his weaknesses.

If the AH is indeed a true power spike, that's very, very bad. To qualify as true power creep, however, he'd still have to set a new standard that later PrCs met.

Obviously that's possible. I do think there's been some power creep over the core in the dual-caster classes, but initially, with classes like Cerebromancer and True Necro, that just fixed the problematically weak 'Urge. I don't consider the Fochlucan Lyrist any kind of power creep, since he's seems far under the curve even of the MT, but the AH could certainly prove to be power creep beyond the core level.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

A friend of mine told me about a recent campaign with an Ur-Priest PC. The PCs were all stranded in Baator and near death but managed to convince an allied church to rescue them.

They didn't rescue the Ur-Priest, though, so he died. (Following half the group into death, which had already died before that point.)

Heh.

The GM of my last campaign had an Ur-Priest villain. Things didn't end well for him, either.

Ur-Priests are just asking for it, no?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Hmmm How about a Changeling Barbarian/Cleric/Warshaper who casts Bull's Strength, using his Shapechange, and then Rages? He can have a 30 Strength!

Um... I'm trying to figure out if you're joking or not.

A 30 Strength is nothing special. Seriously. A druid can hit 33 at 9th level with a 'mere' animal growthed dire wolf wild shape, and go up to 37 with a bull's strength if he has the time to buff. Needless to say, he can do better at higher levels when he can growth to gargantuan.

A half-orc barbarian can almost get to 30 at the same level, and can top 30 with enlarge person.

Several fairly low LA races can get there as soon or sooner.

 

[Naathez]

No.
No.
No.

Oh, and No.


There is no "power creep" in ANYTHING. Because POWER CREEP is the name people give to what OTHER people do when totally forgetting about a part (to me, the BIGGEST part, to others maybe not so; it's a game, so as long as one is having fun, they're playing it EXACTLY right. Still, it is A part) of RPG:

the R.

ROLE.

The problem isn't, EVER, with what options there are available. It's how, by whom, and to what purpose they're used.

The problem is in the term "build" itself... in people wondering whether they're making a powerful enough "build". That is not the point. But now I'm starting to rant, so I'll stop THAT part.

By the way, I also agree on what has been said: it is INEVITABLE that, with more and more supplements coming out, some combinations which have unexpected or unforeseen conclusions are BOUND to come out.

 

[Darkness]

The problem isn't, EVER, with what options there are available. It's how, by whom, and to what purpose they're used.

It can, however, be a problem when the relative game impact of an option is not made readily apparent to the average user. And it rarely is.

 

[MonsterMash]

I voted undecided - as I haven't really seen that many of the 3.5 splatbooks. Personally I tend not to like the proliferation of options because its really hard to know how everything will interact with other PrC, Feats, etc, and there is a lot of scope for 'customisation' just in the core PHB/DMG.

 

[hero4hire]

Um... I'm trying to figure out if you're joking or not.

A 30 Strength is nothing special. Seriously. A druid can hit 33 at 9th level with a 'mere' animal growthed dire wolf wild shape, and go up to 37 with a bull's strength if he has the time to buff. Needless to say, he can do better at higher levels when he can growth to gargantuan.

A half-orc barbarian can almost get to 30 at the same level, and can top 30 with enlarge person.

Several fairly low LA races can get there as soon or sooner.

That Druid cant cast spells in his wildshape (w/o feats) wield a nice Greatsword (w/o more feats) Have some nifty magic armor (I am sure there is a feat)

That Ogre cant even cast an Enlarge Person.

The Changeling I mention also has a +4 to Con from warshaper, fast healing 2, if he stacked an Enlarge Person from his str domain at 9th level he has a potential of a 34 str, with his power attack he can do like +30 damage with a normal Greatsword and still have a +12 to hit.

It might not be a big deal in your campaign, but in the ones I am used to, this class combo most impressive.