Illvillainy
First Post
There's a slight power creep, but nothing that can not be combated by a competent DM using common sense.
Examples of Power Creep?
- Thread starter Navar
- Start date
DungeonMaster
First Post
I'll bite, there are tons of these examples though so I'll only list a few off the top of my head.
1) Is there a class that has come out that has been more powerful than a) one in the 3.5 Phb, b) a multiclass combo using classes and or PrCs the 3.5 PhB and DmG?
Psion >> Sorceror, Warmage >> Sorceror
2) Is there a race that has come out that has been more powerful than one in the 3.5 Phb? (taking ECL into account)
Warforged, Elan, anything with mental stats bonus like the underdark humans >> PHB races
3) Is there a PrC that has come out that has been more powerful than a) a straight class in the 3.5 Phb, or b) a multiclass combo using classes and or PrCs the 3.5 PhB and DmG?
Arcane hierophant >> mystic theurge, Frenzied berzerker >> any core barbar
4) Is there a feat that has come out that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?
Vow of poverty, Karmic Strike, split ray, etc..
5) Is there a spell that has come out that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?
Shivering touch, Streamers, Quill blast, Wraithstrike, etc...
6) Is there a Magic item that has come out that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?
Rod of undead mastery doubles the number of undead controllable (10k only too...). Belt of magnificence from the miniature's handbook, Ankh of ascencion, etc...
7) Is there a combonation of any of the above that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?
Well someone produce a "best build", let's say 20th level, using only core and I'll guarantee it can be trumped using core + non-core.
1) Is there a class that has come out that has been more powerful than a) one in the 3.5 Phb, b) a multiclass combo using classes and or PrCs the 3.5 PhB and DmG?
Psion >> Sorceror, Warmage >> Sorceror
2) Is there a race that has come out that has been more powerful than one in the 3.5 Phb? (taking ECL into account)
Warforged, Elan, anything with mental stats bonus like the underdark humans >> PHB races
3) Is there a PrC that has come out that has been more powerful than a) a straight class in the 3.5 Phb, or b) a multiclass combo using classes and or PrCs the 3.5 PhB and DmG?
Arcane hierophant >> mystic theurge, Frenzied berzerker >> any core barbar
4) Is there a feat that has come out that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?
Vow of poverty, Karmic Strike, split ray, etc..
5) Is there a spell that has come out that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?
Shivering touch, Streamers, Quill blast, Wraithstrike, etc...
6) Is there a Magic item that has come out that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?
Rod of undead mastery doubles the number of undead controllable (10k only too...). Belt of magnificence from the miniature's handbook, Ankh of ascencion, etc...
7) Is there a combonation of any of the above that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?
Well someone produce a "best build", let's say 20th level, using only core and I'll guarantee it can be trumped using core + non-core.
Arnwyn
First Post
Well, d00d, I voted yes, but it's not (nor can it be) a "universal" yes. In the end, I can only answer for my particular campaign, and no one else's. (And, seeing the number of arguments on this thread, I don't think there is a standard campaign one can speak to.)Navar said:
So, for example, I find that the Warlock and Scout are examples of power creep, but only for my particular campaign. The Warlock is built on a load of inappropriate assumptions by WotC that don't necessarily apply to my game (see the WotC website). And, again for my campaign, the Scout is a no-brainer compared to the Rogue (d8, cherry-picks all the 'better' skills).
Now, I have no problem with this - I have the freedom to choose whatever I want to allow IMC (and I do), so there isn't a "problem" with power creep. There just "is".
Power Creep
I think there is without a doubt a sizeable increase in power creep in the splatbooks. Of course, when I DM I reserve the right to disallow anything I don't like and that works just fine. On the flipside, I am glad that WotC is willing to try new things such as new classes, spells and so forth. What disappoints me the most is the sloppiness of the books and/or the design/wording of certain spells, feats, etc. With simple clean up on wording some of the power creep could be minimized (as well as the questions that go along with the spell or feat). An example would be whirling blade. A rogue/wizard with this spell could potentially get a sneak attack on every opponent he targets since it is a melee attack. The range is 60' long which potentially could be a lot of bad guys sliced down. Now in our campaign we have house ruled that only the 1st person gets sneak attacked as the rogue/wizards views of enemies after the first are partially blocked by the first enemy and thus does not get sneak attack. But I mean come on, if you are going to design a spell like that, take those considerations in. The splatbooks are designed with only 1 class in mind for the most part. Players however don't think like that (nor DM's for that matter).
Once again, I challenge those who don't think power creep exists to examine their own campaigns (or ones they have been a part of in the past) and see if there were certain spells that everyone took with a particular class. Druids, IMO have far more potent and versatile spells that can affect a wider range of circumstances with the splatbooks than what they have in the PHB. Is this good? In some cases. Is it bad? IMO, in a lot of cases. I see my party's druid acting way different than most other druids I have seen because of these spells. I have a cleric in the same party that looks at the warmage that is in the group and he says - You lead, I'll back you up. The warmage has an answer for everything they fight. The cleric player for the most part sticks to PHB spells while the warmage player seeks every new spell in existance to throw at the enemy. Different playing styles for sure, but also massive differences in power curve (I will grant they do have different roles in the party but there really is a difference in the power level between the two).
So please, lets hear some examples...I know they exist.
I think there is without a doubt a sizeable increase in power creep in the splatbooks. Of course, when I DM I reserve the right to disallow anything I don't like and that works just fine. On the flipside, I am glad that WotC is willing to try new things such as new classes, spells and so forth. What disappoints me the most is the sloppiness of the books and/or the design/wording of certain spells, feats, etc. With simple clean up on wording some of the power creep could be minimized (as well as the questions that go along with the spell or feat). An example would be whirling blade. A rogue/wizard with this spell could potentially get a sneak attack on every opponent he targets since it is a melee attack. The range is 60' long which potentially could be a lot of bad guys sliced down. Now in our campaign we have house ruled that only the 1st person gets sneak attacked as the rogue/wizards views of enemies after the first are partially blocked by the first enemy and thus does not get sneak attack. But I mean come on, if you are going to design a spell like that, take those considerations in. The splatbooks are designed with only 1 class in mind for the most part. Players however don't think like that (nor DM's for that matter).
Once again, I challenge those who don't think power creep exists to examine their own campaigns (or ones they have been a part of in the past) and see if there were certain spells that everyone took with a particular class. Druids, IMO have far more potent and versatile spells that can affect a wider range of circumstances with the splatbooks than what they have in the PHB. Is this good? In some cases. Is it bad? IMO, in a lot of cases. I see my party's druid acting way different than most other druids I have seen because of these spells. I have a cleric in the same party that looks at the warmage that is in the group and he says - You lead, I'll back you up. The warmage has an answer for everything they fight. The cleric player for the most part sticks to PHB spells while the warmage player seeks every new spell in existance to throw at the enemy. Different playing styles for sure, but also massive differences in power curve (I will grant they do have different roles in the party but there really is a difference in the power level between the two).
So please, lets hear some examples...I know they exist.
Golliaths
Ravellion,
Maybe part of the problem does exist with the Frenzied Beserker. It still backs up my point - PrC from a splatbook is more powerful than core 3.5 ones. I do, however, disagree that they are on par with any other race, including dwarves. All PC races, for the most part are based on small or medium size in terms of reach and weapons held. The Golliath can use a weapon one size category larger AND he gets +4 str bonus. When compared to any PHB race they don't comapare. Even though he has a LA +1 I would trade those bonuses any day as the weapon (even if identical) deals more damage as well as getting +2 to hit and damage. The LA penalty pretty much translates into a loss of +1 on BAB and maybe a feat. Whoop de doooo!! If the Golliath is barbarian and goes into rage he gets +8 to str (4 from race and 4 from rage) so a raging Golliath at 1st level could have a Str 26 if he rolled an 18 str. That's nasty! Start stacking these bonuses with Power Attack and Cleave and any PHB fighter/barbarian couldn't go toe to toe with him. The Golliath is just asking to be broken.
I should end my post now before several Golliaths come over and pound me to dust for pointing that out.
Ravellion,
Maybe part of the problem does exist with the Frenzied Beserker. It still backs up my point - PrC from a splatbook is more powerful than core 3.5 ones. I do, however, disagree that they are on par with any other race, including dwarves. All PC races, for the most part are based on small or medium size in terms of reach and weapons held. The Golliath can use a weapon one size category larger AND he gets +4 str bonus. When compared to any PHB race they don't comapare. Even though he has a LA +1 I would trade those bonuses any day as the weapon (even if identical) deals more damage as well as getting +2 to hit and damage. The LA penalty pretty much translates into a loss of +1 on BAB and maybe a feat. Whoop de doooo!! If the Golliath is barbarian and goes into rage he gets +8 to str (4 from race and 4 from rage) so a raging Golliath at 1st level could have a Str 26 if he rolled an 18 str. That's nasty! Start stacking these bonuses with Power Attack and Cleave and any PHB fighter/barbarian couldn't go toe to toe with him. The Golliath is just asking to be broken.
I should end my post now before several Golliaths come over and pound me to dust for pointing that out.
Crothian
First Post
Markn said:
sneak attacking with it can happen but only to 30 feat, that limit is on sneak attack ability so even though the spell can go farther the snaek attack would not apply to all enemies. Still, a potent combo.
The biggest power creep is BoED. To me there are more things of power in there then any other book. Saint, Vows, exalted feats, some of the new santcuify spells are really strong,. I played a character with options from that book for one session and then had him get killed becasue the options were just too good.
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