Excerpt: Paragon paths (merged)

[Kordeth]

Is the PHB truly confirmed to have only 12 paragon paths?

The Player’s Handbook supplies many paragon paths (you’ll find one for each class, previewed below), plus upcoming products and Dragon Magazine features will include even more paths as time goes on.

I see nothing that says there are only a dozen paragon paths--considering that would be less than two paragon paths per class, I'm reasoably comfortable saying that wherever you got that information from, it was incorrect.

 

[ShockMeSane]

really?

from succubus(level nine)
Str 11 (+4) Dex 18 (+8) Wis 19 (+8)
Con 10 (+4) Int 15 (+6) Cha 22 (+10)

from war devil(level 22)

Str 27 (+19) Dex 23 (+17) Wis 19 (+15)
Con 25 (+18) Int 15 (+13) Cha 18 (+15)

EDIT

and from the Phane(level 26)

Str 24 (+20)
Dex 30 (+23)
Wis 25 (+20)
Con 23 (+19)
Int 28 (+22)
Cha 22 (+19)

Check the monsters damage bonuses. They certainly do not reflect anything other than the unmodified bonus to the appropriate attack type. For example the Pit Fiend's entry shows his Strength as Str 32 (+24), his base bonus is +11, +13 more for 1/2 his level. Yet all his bonus damage is at +11. The conventional wisdom is that the number in parenthesis is the modifier that is used for NPC skill-checks, as these do progress at 1/2 level.

It was confusing for me at first too

 

[small pumpkin man]

Is the PHB truly confirmed to have only 12 paragon paths? This seems almost impossible to me, as one of the paragon paths previewed here is for Star-pact Warlock. If there are only 4 more paragon paths, that basically leaves 1 available for the remaining 3 warlock builds and an alternate wizard path option all in one path. Of course, this doesn't even mention:

Bow using Rangers.
Spellcasting Clerics.
Defensive Fighters.
Charisma/Tactical Warlords.
etc etc

or ANY options. Indeed, if your Star Pact Warlock hit level 11, you would virtually be FORCED to take Doomsayer as your paragon path. Seeing as this completely invalidates the entire idea of further customizing your character choice via Paragon Paths, I'm about 99% certain that the PHB must contain substantially more than 12 Paragon Paths. Perhaps you were thinking Epic Destinies? I believe Epic Destines are purposefully more vague than Paragon Paths, and I could see only having 12 of them in the first PHB. But Paragon Paths?

Thing is, when they said that, they also said Paragon paths were good for two different classes, since several seem to be only for one build of one class, I think it's safe to say the Paths have changed a bit since then. I think I remember someone saying there was now a lot more of them, but I could be wrong.

 

[Green Knight]

really?

from succubus(level nine)
Str 11 (+4) Dex 18 (+8) Wis 19 (+8)
Con 10 (+4) Int 15 (+6) Cha 22 (+10)

from war devil(level 22)

Str 27 (+19) Dex 23 (+17) Wis 19 (+15)
Con 25 (+18) Int 15 (+13) Cha 18 (+15)

EDIT

and from the Phane(level 26)

Str 24 (+20)
Dex 30 (+23)
Wis 25 (+20)
Con 23 (+19)
Int 28 (+22)
Cha 22 (+19)

Those are skill bonuses. They don't affect things like bonus to hit and damage due to strength. A Fighter with Str 18 gets +4 to hit and +4 to damage due to his strength at Level 1, and he gets +4 to hit and +4 to damage due to his strength at Level 30.

 

[MindWanderer]

Note that the power says "this turn," not "this round." Could be that "turn" has a specific definition that clarifies this.

Turns are defined, yes: Each character's action is one turn (so the bonus wouldn't apply to AoOs. Doesn't help for this "retroactive damage" debate--which I seriously doubt is an interpretation anyone considered before now.

Wait, heavy blade? It's a category now?

Well, light blade was known as a category already (rogue article), so heavy blade stands to reason. What I found interesting is that they feel they have to mention it specifically, since warlords get military melee weapons proficiency automatically. I wonder under what circumstances a warlord might not have that proficiency.

I would be willing to bet that you can m-c from level one. (even if it is only cross-training initially)

They mentioned in a playtest report, a long time ago, that's it's possible to be a rogue/wizard at level 1, and in a different report that you can be a warlord/wizard at low levels as well. But one option might be to "multiclass" via a Class Training feat at level 1, then when you reach level 11, take up a second class "for real" and retrain the original feat into something else.

Kensei Focus +1 with weapon. This is an 11th level ability. A bonus of only +1 is still relevant at 11-20. This makes me happy.

Of course. The math works out the same way at all levels, so if you're trying to hit AC 25 when your attack bonus is +13, then you should be trying to hit AC 35 when your attack bonus is +23.

There are 8 paths in this preview, 1 for each class. It has been revealed that there is a total of 12 paths in the first PH. It will be interesting to see what will be these additional paths.

I'm hoping they changed their minds about this. If only 4 paths are unaccounted for, then those 4 paths have to offer something to an awful lot of builds: archer rangers, fey and infernal pact warlocks, and warlords who somehow aren't proficient with heavy blades for starters, then trickster rogues, "pacifist" clerics and wizards, and anyone else who doesn't feel like the fit their class-specific PP. We also know that one PP allows a wizard to use a sword as if it were a wand, and there must be other, similar paths. If they stuck with 12, I think it's going to feel really limiting--you either match the archetype they thought up for you, or you multiclass, foregoing the more potent options, like action point broadening, available to those who stayed within the lines.

 

[That One Guy]

Is the PHB truly confirmed to have only 12 paragon paths? This seems almost impossible to me, as one of the paragon paths previewed here is for Star-pact Warlock. If there are only 4 more paragon paths, that basically leaves 1 available for the remaining 3 warlock builds and an alternate wizard path option all in one path. Of course, this doesn't even mention:

Bow using Rangers.
Spellcasting Clerics.
Defensive Fighters.
Charisma/Tactical Warlords.
etc etc

or ANY options. Indeed, if your Star Pact Warlock hit level 11, you would virtually be FORCED to take Doomsayer as your paragon path. Seeing as this completely invalidates the entire idea of further customizing your character choice via Paragon Paths, I'm about 99% certain that the PHB must contain substantially more than 12 Paragon Paths. Perhaps you were thinking Epic Destinies? I believe Epic Destines are purposefully more vague than Paragon Paths, and I could see only having 12 of them in the first PHB. But Paragon Paths?

I was thinking something similar. Another possibility (although I doubt it) is that there are different class features available to each paragon path (yes, a star pact warlock would be a doomsayer, but could have different features). At the same time, that does seem weak. Bow wielding rangers, non heavy blade walords, spell focused clerics are almost definitely in, right? But then there are the other warlock paths. While I was initially quite joyful with the excerpt, now I am slightly confused and worried.

 

[ShockMeSane]

I see nothing that says there are only a dozen paragon paths--considering that would be less than two paragon paths per class, I'm reasoably comfortable saying that wherever you got that information from, it was incorrect.

MaelStorm posted earlier in the thread on the third page that 12 paths had been confirmed for the PHB. My post was meant to be incredulous to that, and I ought to have quoted him but I was feeling lazy. I'm quite certain it's more than 12 paths as well.

In fact, as it seems that a basic design decision for 4ED for each class was (Rogue example in parenthesis)

One primary stat (Dex)
Choice of secondary stat out of two options (Str or Cha)

The secondary stat you choose seems to have a substantial effect on how your character is going to play over the long run. I would be extremely dissapointed if each of the 2 basic build options per class did not have at least 3 viable Paragon Paths. And honestly, I'd prefer the number be closer to 5-6, though I realise that is bringing us into the neighborhood of 90+ paragon paths and might be a bit much to ask for the PHB1.

I'm personally expecting the number to be closer to 40.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Well, light blade was known as a category already (rogue article), so heavy blade stands to reason. What I found interesting is that they feel they have to mention it specifically, since warlords get military melee weapons proficiency automatically. I wonder under what circumstances a warlord might not have that proficiency.

Perhaps, it is something where there are Heavy Blades in various proficiencies, so it means that the Warlord can use any Heavy Blades?

Or perhaps... With multiclassing you may not gain access to the Warlord's proficiencies but could say have a feat that allows for Heavy Blades use?

As for number of of paragon paths, I remember them saying 2 dozen.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

I can not claim to be impressed by the flavor of the options on offer. (I'm a warlord, but I really really like swords!) Though you are all ignoring the option to multiclass instead of a path.

I wonder what you get instead of the AP boost thing then?

 

[Lurker59]

Considering we've already seen the Iron Vanguard, Battle Captain, Battle Archer, Astral Weapon, and a few others in blogs I think its apparent that there's more than 12 paragon paths. I seem to remember hearing 24 at some point. And if they decided to limit each path to only one class then it's possible they've expanded the number further.