D&D 5E Exhaustion for old 1e undead level drain

[Helldritch]

It's what a number of monsters do, nightwalker with enervating touch, bite of a vampire and spawn, wraith life drain, wight, etc. coincidentally all the Level Draining monsters from AD&D. Maybe not scary enough ?

No one wants to go back to level drain. But a temporary unavoidable max hp reduction can be a good compromise. Especially if to have your hp back only after a save at the end of a long rest and to have these hp back, you need to spend HD to recover.

This reduction can mean a whole day of adventuring with reduced hp, and a potential of much more if you fail to save. And even if you save, the HD you have to take is again a reduction of you healing potential which can lead to a death spiral.

This is exactly what I do in my games and my players do not like undead. Nope, they do not like them at all.

 

[Lanefan]

No one wants to go back to level drain.

Speak for yourself.

I don't think level drain should have ever been taken out.

But a temporary unavoidable max hp reduction can be a good compromise. Especially if to have your hp back only after a save at the end of a long rest and to have these hp back, you need to spend HD to recover.

This reduction can mean a whole day of adventuring with reduced hp, and a potential of much more if you fail to save. And even if you save, the HD you have to take is again a reduction of you healing potential which can lead to a death spiral.

This assumes your parties keep adventuring rather than find a place to rest and recover; which if the reduced h.p. maybe only lasts for a day is a pretty easy choice.

What your system seems closer to than level drain is the "incurable" system we use if you go below 0 h.p. for any reason; depending on a) how far below you went (death is at -10) and b) the power of the first cure or effect used to stabilize or heal you, there's a set period of time* where you can't go above just a few h.p. (usually about 2-6) until-unless you rest them back naturally. Cures don't help. And our rest rates are way slower than 5e - an overnight rest gets you back 10% of your total h.p. rounding everything up (thus someone with 32 h.p. would get back 4).

* - anywhere from a few hours to several days depending on the various factors involved.

 

[el-remmen]

I have damage from a "level-draining" undead take from the max, but requires either an "extended rest" a week of days with light activity and long rests every night, or healing done on consecrated ground (like a temple or other holy site) to recover.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Like @Lanefan I have always been a fan of level drain (even as a player!) to make those undead truly frightening.

Of all the options I've heard, my favorites would be:

1. "Permanent" Max HP drain. No long rest recovery. Make it require a Greater Restoration or more powerful spell. If you want a rest recovery mechanic, allow 1 Max HP recovered per long rest, not all of it! If you want it faster, but not all in a long rest, maybe 1 Max HP / level.

2. Drain HD. This I think in some ways is close to the old level mechanic in you have as many HD as you have levels. HD drained in this way would also take longer to recover, maybe 1 HD per day. In other words, it would be a temporary lowering of your maximum HD you can have. Oh, and for MC characters, largest HD is drained first.

3. Levels of exhaustion are also a good substitute for level drain IMO.

4. Constitution drain would also be good.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Like @Lanefan I have always been a fan of level drain (even as a player!) to make those undead truly frightening.

Of all the options I've heard, my favorites would be:

1. "Permanent" Max HP drain. No long rest recovery. Make it require a Greater Restoration or more powerful spell. If you want a rest recovery mechanic, allow 1 Max HP recovered per long rest, not all of it! If you want it faster, but not all in a long rest, maybe 1 Max HP / level.

2. Drain HD. This I think in some ways is close to the old level mechanic in you have as many HD as you have levels. HD drained in this way would also take longer to recover, maybe 1 HD per day. In other words, it would be a temporary lowering of your maximum HD you can have. Oh, and for MC characters, largest HD is drained first.

3. Levels of exhaustion are also a good substitute for level drain IMO.

4. Constitution drain would also be good.

Heh, actually constitution drain sounds interesting too. How would you do. 1d4 CON per strike maybe....ouch.

Exhaustion I like as if using DnDbeyond it has a notation right there and is not fiddly to mark in. Agree it does disproportionally impact on people using physical attacks though.

Maybe I'll experiment - all noncorporeal undead will be exhaustion but bloodsuckers can be 1d4 CON drain/attack (or more maybe..?)

 

[guachi]

I like some of the alternatives to level drain to make undead scarier. One of my goals when 5e came out was to have threats to the PCs other than outright death. I actually kept level drain in the game, but there were few undead that could drain levels. First time the party encountered one they were 4th level or so. They immediately retreated but, unfortunately, the undead could move through walls.

The next round was a flurry of PCs using abilities to down the undead in one round. This was fun! Players like to feel when they use a limited-use ability that it wasn't a waste. That it served a good purpose.

I doubt I'll use Level Drain in the future but anything to set undead apart and make them scary is good in my book.

 

[Casimir Liber]

If you're looking to add more danger, suspense, and a touch of realism, the exhaustion track is a good substitute for long term damage or crippling effects. However, it does change the nature of the game. Having run a campaign for several years where exhaustion was a regular occurrence, exhaustion is nothing to trifle with. PCs can quickly find themselves on Death's Door with no way to run. In my own campaign, any creature dropping to 0 hp gained a level of exhaustion. Part of it was to make combat a little more deadly, (healing word was practically useless in my campaign). If you were dropped a few times then you'd be rolling Death Saves with disadvantage. When you reach level 6 exhaustion you die. It's easier to roll a natural '1' when you're rolling with disadvantage.

Wow - a level of exhaustion after recovering from 0hp is a really good idea

 

[jgsugden]

I have homebrew monsters that I use as greater / leader undead. They have a draining abilities that they can use, but it is a recharge ability (usually 4 to 6 on d6), and there is a con save to avoid it. Most of these creatures are legendary, so most can inflict it on attacks on a legendary action.

The drains can be used on specified attacks (determined by the creature type) and work like this:

• Lose a number of spell slots equal to your proficiency bonus, or half your remaining unused slots (rounded up), whichever is least. These are yor highest remaining spell slots available.
• Gain a -2 penalty to attack rolls and reduce the die size for all of your damage rolls by 1.
• At the end of a long rest, repeat the saving throw. If you succeed, you either gain a recovery token, or spend a recovery token to end the effect. If you fail the saving throw by more than 5, you gain no benefit from your long rest, you gain a level of exhaustion, and you lose all recovery tokens you possess.
• If you die while this effect is in place, you rise as an undead (the rules on how this works differs from creature to creature). The Greater undead can teleport to any such undead at the moment of its creation.

You must succeed on 2 saving throws after long rests to end the effect, and if you fail one by more than 5, you have to start all over (and incur exhaustion levels).

My Wight Kings deliver it with a touch, usually delivered on a backhand strike they make as a bonus action or reaction that flings PCs up to 15 feet. Vampire Lords deliver it with a gaze attack they can make as part of a multi-attack. Elder Wraith's deliver it when they pass through a creature. Ancient Dracolich deliver it to everyone within their breath weapon, but it recharges on a 6. Arch-Liches get a special cantrip that does 4d10 necrotic and (if available) delivers this effect (which is something that might be delivered on a legendary action) - and as an added bonus, any humanoid under the effects of this ability may be treated as an additional phylactery for the Arch-lich - which is something that makes Arch-liches hard to kill.

My Mummy Kings/Queens are the nastiest - they have a huge aura, and the first time you enter it or start your turn there, you make the save. You also have a 50% chance to have to repeat it if you start your turn within the aura on subsequent turns.

 

[Helldritch]

Speak for yourself.

I don't think level drain should have ever been taken out.

This assumes your parties keep adventuring rather than find a place to rest and recover; which if the reduced h.p. maybe only lasts for a day is a pretty easy choice.

What your system seems closer to than level drain is the "incurable" system we use if you go below 0 h.p. for any reason; depending on a) how far below you went (death is at -10) and b) the power of the first cure or effect used to stabilize or heal you, there's a set period of time* where you can't go above just a few h.p. (usually about 2-6) until-unless you rest them back naturally. Cures don't help. And our rest rates are way slower than 5e - an overnight rest gets you back 10% of your total h.p. rounding everything up (thus someone with 32 h.p. would get back 4).

* - anywhere from a few hours to several days depending on the various factors involved.

If I recall correctly, you play 1st edition or 2nd? Well, in 5ed, they removed level Draining for good reasons. If I were playing 1st or 2nd edition, of course I would keep level draining. But different editions have different takes on undead. 5ed is a bit weak on that side, thus this thread.

The goal is how to make undead more dangerous in 5ed without denaturing the game so much that it is no longer 5ed in philosophy. That is not achieve by going back to level draining.

And just to be clear, in the previous I was applying the rules of level drain with utter ruthlessness. I had a group that survived a horde of vampires going from level 18 to level 7... and unfortunately for them, they did not have access to restoration spells so in essence, they restarted their characters with strong equipment but low levels. To each editions its own.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Never forget that you can target a character's Proficiency bonus or HD.

- Each hit reduces the target's Proficiency by 1. Once you reach 0, you die. A Greater restoration spell yadayada...

- On a hit, the target loses X HDs. If the target has no HD remaining, they must roll the same number of hit die and reduce their current and maximum HP per the same amount. You die if you reach 0 max hp. A Greater restoration spell etc etc...

or create a Drained condition that tracks like Exhaustion.

Rank	Effect
1	You make death saving throws with disadvantage. You can't Concentrate on spells or any features.
2	You lose all resistance to all damage types. When you deal damage or regain hit points, roll all dice twice, taking the lowest result.
3	You can’t benefit from advantage on any attack rolls or ability checks.
4	Your Proficiency Bonus is reduced to 0.
5	Whenever you attempt an action in combat, you must make a DC 10 Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, you lose your action and can't use reactions until the start of your next turn.
6	You die.