D&D 5E Exhaustion for old 1e undead level drain

[Lanefan]

If I recall correctly, you play 1st edition or 2nd? Well, in 5ed, they removed level Draining for good reasons.

It was originally weakened in 3e then removed outright in 4e, I think. 5e just stayed the 4e course in this regard.

If I were playing 1st or 2nd edition, of course I would keep level draining. But different editions have different takes on undead. 5ed is a bit weak on that side, thus this thread.

The goal is how to make undead more dangerous in 5ed without denaturing the game so much that it is no longer 5ed in philosophy. That is not achieve by going back to level draining.

Where to become something I'd want to play/run 5e's philosophy would have to change significantly.

And just to be clear, in the previous I was applying the rules of level drain with utter ruthlessness. I had a group that survived a horde of vampires going from level 18 to level 7... and unfortunately for them, they did not have access to restoration spells so in essence, they restarted their characters with strong equipment but low levels. To each editions its own.

While I've never whacked a group from 18th to 7th (hell, I've never had a group get anywhere near 18th in the first place!) I too have removed numerous levels from characters over time.

 

[Voadam]

Came across this here - fantastic idea - makes undead scary again....

so in my campaign in my game, wights and spectres incur one level exhaustion, while wraiths and vampires incur TWO levels of exhaustion. Exhaustion is treatable with Lesser Restoration initially, but if a victim loses more than two levels of exhaustion, they’ll need a Greater Restoration to be cured.

Specters in 5e are basically incorporeal skeletons, low-level low-CR ghosts. I would caution against giving them glass cannon attacks when a wraith can have a swarm of specter minions they spawned attack somebody and with bounded accuracy have a decent shot of a bunch of hits out of proportion for their CR threat.

It is not like 0e-4e where Spectres were top tier incorporeal undead just below vampires.

 

[Voadam]

It was originally weakened in 3e then removed outright in 4e, I think. 5e just stayed the 4e course in this regard.

4e usually replaced energy drain with draining healing surges, so life energy that was not as impactful on the immediate fight (usually) but felt significantly for the adventuring day resources.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Heh, actually constitution drain sounds interesting too. How would you do. 1d4 CON per strike maybe....ouch.

Oh, I would mirror AD&D with Vampires draining 2 CON, others just 1 CON or something instead of a variable, but really anything could work.

It is a bit of a bookkeeping hassle if you actually adjust CON with Max HP dropping, etc. but not too bad I would think.

Wow - a level of exhaustion after recovering from 0hp is a really good idea

Yep, this is a pretty common house-rule to help prevent whack-a-mole (and it works IME).

The only argument against it is the death spiral effect, which a lot of groups don't want.

Never forget that you can target a character's Proficiency bonus

Which is also a good measure if you want to keep the number of hits potentially more lethal. Keep in mind the different options:

Exhaustion - 6 to kill at any level.
Proficiency bonus - only 2 to 6, depending on level.
HD - only 1 (yikes!) but up to 20 (wow!), depending on level.
CON - minimum 8(ish), but up to 20 at any level.
Max HP - anything from 6 or so up to hundreds, depending on level.

So, first question is do you want it level dependent? Then I would avoid exhaustion for the most part, unless you allow a save, in which case level and proficiency can become a factor in making the save.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

HD - only 1 (yikes!) but up to 20 (wow!), depending on level.

I'd favor going for an Exhaustion-like tiered condition. But if not, the HD method would be best, I think:

• Its pretty rare that you face level-draining creatures at super low level.
• Even at high-ish level, you can have your creature drain more than 1 HD. Could be 1d4 HD + another 1d4 if they fail a save! That would be one nasty vampire!
• It works even better with the Natural Recovery alternate rule which requires a player to spend HD to regain hp.

Proficiency level is nice, but require a lot of tracking for players, IMHO.

A mix of Con drain (ala shadows) + max HP drain can be quite nasty.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Specters in 5e are basically incorporeal skeletons, low-level low-CR ghosts. I would caution against giving them glass cannon attacks when a wraith can have a swarm of specter minions they spawned attack somebody and with bounded accuracy have a decent shot of a bunch of hits out of proportion for their CR threat.

It is not like 0e-4e where Spectres were top tier incorporeal undead just below vampires.

Point taken, though is only a DC 10 CON save to avoid consequences and (in how I'm homebrewing it) first two levels would be fixed by lesser restoration.

 

[overgeeked]

No one wants to go back to level drain.

I do. I love level draining undead. They were properly scary. Now it’s a few hit points damage at worst against PCs with endless pop-up healing and superhero regeneration from an 8-hour rest.

 

[Lyxen]

A mix of Con drain (ala shadows) + max HP drain can be quite nasty.

There is a reason stat damage and drain has not made the cut in 5e, because it imposes on the fly recomputation of bonuses and tracking those, which significantly complicates and slows down the game. This is why "CON Drain" has been modified into "max hit point loss", which is slightly easier to track.

As for HD loss, the problem is that they don't hurt the PC on the spot, only future recovery, so it's not really scary, unless you say something like "at 0 HD, you die" ?

 

[Casimir Liber]

There is a reason stat damage and drain has not made the cut in 5e, because it imposes on the fly recomputation of bonuses and tracking those, which significantly complicates and slows down the game. This is why "CON Drain" has been modified into "max hit point loss", which is slightly easier to track.

As for HD loss, the problem is that they don't hurt the PC on the spot, only future recovery, so it's not really scary, unless you say something like "at 0 HD, you die" ?

good point, which is why I guess I like exhaustion as much simpler and as scary

 

[Lyxen]

good point, which is why I guess I like exhaustion as much simpler and as scary

Indeed, Exhaustion is built in the system, no additional mechanic or anything special to track, it has instant scary effects, etc.

The only difficulty is the recovery, which you addressed I think pretty well in your original post, with the only side effect that the PCs can more or less ignore normal exhaustion with healing spells, but if it's not a mechanic that you use often in your campaign it should not be a problem. The alternative is having two different types of exhaustion, cumulative, but with only the exhaustion from draining being recoverable through restoration spells.