D&D 5E Expanded Fighter

[Quickleaf]

Hi everyone. “Fixing” the Fighter is one of my pet projects, and it’s a thread that come up here more and more often. For sake of keeping this thread on track, I’d like to limit the discussion to how to add more flavor and identity to the Fighter, not if it’s required (or if classes like the Barbarian need a touch up too).

My goal here is to add a little more character to the Fighter, primarily to give them something unique to do out of combat. Of course there are backgrounds and they work well to give some identity to the Fighter, but everyone gets those, they aren’t unique. I’d also like to give the base fighter more options in combat without complicating them too much.

So, here are the ideas I’ve been tossing around:

Hey Xeviat, I did extensive homebrewing on the Fighter over here (TL;DR: I renamed it "Warrior" for the social connotations & focus on warfare from a holistic/strategic standpoint, rather than just a tactical one), but I'll try to condense my thoughts about flavor/identity down to three strong points...

...I consider these 3 points to be fundamental & foundational to any re-designing or homebrewing of the Fighter that one might attempt...

1. There are clear "spaces" for additional Fighter class features
Compare the 2nd-level Fighter to other classes – all classes (except Fighter & Rogue) gain 2 features. Action Surge is very potent, and does have potential for use in some non-combat scenarios...so opinions may vary, but I think there's room alongside Action Surge for something more flavorful/supporting of a stronger identity: a "ribbon feature" I believe the designers call it. IMHO a careful re-tooling of Cunning Action with a focus on reactions would support the Fighter play style, as I've experienced it. If adopting this approach, the Rogue should get a 2nd feature too…maybe Read Languages?

Compare the 3rd-level Fighter to other warrior-type classes – in addition to subclass, Barbarians also get bonus Rage, Paladins also get Divine Health, and Rangers also get Primeval Awareness. Looking at Fighter subclasses (which have strong combat features at 3rd level), it's clear that there is room for a non-combat feature a la Divine Health or Primeval Awareness. This could either be part of the Fighter, or another feature baked into the subclass.

Compare the 5th-level Fighter to other warrior-type classes – in addition to Extra Attack, Barbarians also get Fast Movement, while Paladins and Rangers also get 2nd level spells. Clearly, the Fighter has the potential for a feature of equivalent power to be added at 5th level.

Lastly, look at how the 20th-level Fighter gets Extra Attack (3) at 20th level...which is wonky, because other Extra Attack levels (5th & 11th) correspond to tier jumps & cantrip damage upgrades...personally, I would put Extra Attack (4) at 17th level and give the Fighter a proper interesting capstone.

2. Look back to older editions to understand what has been cut from the Fighter

• Fighters of older editions were leaders (+1 morale bonus in Chainmail & robust followers in AD&D).
• Sentient magic sword use was limited to Fighters in OD&D (note that 1/2 of all magic swords in OD&D were sentient...also note that magic item class restrictions in the 5e DMG only mention caster classes).
• Fighters were fearless (in Chainmail, they were completely immune to all kinds of fear).
• Fighters were arguably hard to target, and not just with good ACs (in Chainmail, "heroes" could only be targeted after rest of their unit was killed, representing the fog of war, while in BECMI Fighters with certain weapon mastery could deflect attacks).
• Fighters had niche dragon-killing abilities...that could be interpreted more broadly as a called shot feature (in Chainmail, they dealt bonus damage vs. dragons using a bow and could shoot dragons out of the air).
• Fighters were deadly against hordes of weak monsters (in OD&D and AD&D, they gained extra attacks vs. monsters of 1 HD or less, or less than 1 HD, respectively).
• Fighters were frightening (in Chainmail monsters within a "superhero's" charging path had to make a morale save, while in BECMI a Fighter with weapon mastery could cause weaker monsters to make a morale save under specific circumstances, while in B/X a Fighter could force a morale save if facing a monster with less than 1/2 the Fighter's HD...or with an impressive stunt at the DM's discretion).

Over the years, things that were formerly Fighter-only were opened up to other classes. Nothing wrong with that – for instance, the Rogue's thieving abilities become skills, and that was arguably an improvement in design. However, an argument can be made that nothing unique to the Fighter has filled the void of "baron" which existed in older editions, and that the Fighter's identity has suffered as a result.

3. There is an expectation that a Fighter's choice of weapon should be more significant than another warrior-type's
A lot of homebrewers working on variant Fighters have made varying arguments that amount to the same thing: The Fighter's Fighting Styles feel the same as the Paladin's and Ranger's, but there is an expectation that the Fighter's weapon use be fundamentally different / feel more advanced.

Speaking personally, I expect the Fighter's choice of weaponry to be more significant than other warrior-types. I expect a Fighter to be able to do things with a sword that a Barbarian, Paladin, or Ranger could not do. Merging BD&D Weapon Mastery, AD&D Weapon Specialization (some of the optional rules), and 4e's weapon-specific power effects are good places to look for inspiration. This is an area that is ripe for exploration and playtesting of creative ideas.

 

[Xeviat]

I'm also inclined to make Combat Maneuvers a general thing anybody in combat can do, with the advantage of Battlemasters being that they can do it AND get an extra dX of damage. I haven't really explored that much.

Ive actually explored this a ton. I may polish it and work on it here instead of holding onto my pie in the sky idea that I’ll get it ready for the DM’s Guild.


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[Xeviat]

Hey Xeviat, I did extensive homebrewing on the Fighter over here (TL;DR: I renamed it "Warrior" for the social connotations & focus on warfare from a holistic/strategic standpoint, rather than just a tactical one), but I'll try to condense my thoughts about flavor/identity down to three strong points...

...I consider these 3 points to be fundamental & foundational to any re-designing or homebrewing of the Fighter that one might attempt...

Thanks for coming! Your Warrior has been pretty impressive. It’s slightly more change than I want to do, but I really like the direction you’re coming from.

1. There are clear "spaces" for additional Fighter class features
Compare the 2nd-level Fighter to other classes – all classes (except Fighter & Rogue) gain 2 features. Action Surge is very potent, and does have potential for use in some non-combat scenarios...so opinions may vary, but I think there's room alongside Action Surge for something more flavorful/supporting of a stronger identity: a "ribbon feature" I believe the designers call it. IMHO a careful re-tooling of Cunning Action with a focus on reactions would support the Fighter play style, as I've experienced it. If adopting this approach, the Rogue should get a 2nd feature too…maybe Read Languages?

Compare the 3rd-level Fighter to other warrior-type classes – in addition to subclass, Barbarians also get bonus Rage, Paladins also get Divine Health, and Rangers also get Primeval Awareness. Looking at Fighter subclasses (which have strong combat features at 3rd level), it's clear that there is room for a non-combat feature a la Divine Health or Primeval Awareness. This could either be part of the Fighter, or another feature baked into the subclass.

Compare the 5th-level Fighter to other warrior-type classes – in addition to Extra Attack, Barbarians also get Fast Movement, while Paladins and Rangers also get 2nd level spells. Clearly, the Fighter has the potential for a feature of equivalent power to be added at 5th level.

Lastly, look at how the 20th-level Fighter gets Extra Attack (3) at 20th level...which is wonky, because other Extra Attack levels (5th & 11th) correspond to tier jumps & cantrip damage upgrades...personally, I would put Extra Attack (4) at 17th level and give the Fighter a proper interesting capstone.

At level 2, the other warriors get spells and a Fighting Style, but I think Fighting Style should have been at first level. You are correct that there are some levels they could get some things, especially defensive or ribbon abilities. I also very much agree that Extra Attack should be moved to 17th and they should get a real capstone.

2. Look back to older editions to understand what has been cut from the Fighter

• Fighters of older editions were leaders (+1 morale bonus in Chainmail & robust followers in AD&D).
• Sentient magic sword use was limited to Fighters in OD&D (note that 1/2 of all magic swords in OD&D were sentient...also note that magic item class restrictions in the 5e DMG only mention caster classes).
• Fighters were fearless (in Chainmail, they were completely immune to all kinds of fear).
• Fighters were arguably hard to target, and not just with good ACs (in Chainmail, "heroes" could only be targeted after rest of their unit was killed, representing the fog of war, while in BECMI Fighters with certain weapon mastery could deflect attacks).
• Fighters had niche dragon-killing abilities...that could be interpreted more broadly as a called shot feature (in Chainmail, they dealt bonus damage vs. dragons using a bow and could shoot dragons out of the air).
• Fighters were deadly against hordes of weak monsters (in OD&D and AD&D, they gained extra attacks vs. monsters of 1 HD or less, or less than 1 HD, respectively).
• Fighters were frightening (in Chainmail monsters within a "superhero's" charging path had to make a morale save, while in BECMI a Fighter with weapon mastery could cause weaker monsters to make a morale save under specific circumstances, while in B/X a Fighter could force a morale save if facing a monster with less than 1/2 the Fighter's HD...or with an impressive stunt at the DM's discretion).

Over the years, things that were formerly Fighter-only were opened up to other classes. Nothing wrong with that – for instance, the Rogue's thieving abilities become skills, and that was arguably an improvement in design. However, an argument can be made that nothing unique to the Fighter has filled the void of "baron" which existed in older editions, and that the Fighter's identity has suffered as a result.

I didn’t know about so much of that. Thanks!

3. There is an expectation that a Fighter's choice of weapon should be more significant than another warrior-type's
A lot of homebrewers working on variant Fighters have made varying arguments that amount to the same thing: The Fighter's Fighting Styles feel the same as the Paladin's and Ranger's, but there is an expectation that the Fighter's weapon use be fundamentally different / feel more advanced.

Weapon Mastery felt like something special of the fighters. The Fighter should be the master of weapons and armor. Those are their tools.

Speaking personally, I expect the Fighter's choice of weaponry to be more significant than other warrior-types. I expect a Fighter to be able to do things with a sword that a Barbarian, Paladin, or Ranger could not do. Merging BD&D Weapon Mastery, AD&D Weapon Specialization (some of the optional rules), and 4e's weapon-specific power effects are good places to look for inspiration. This is an area that is ripe for exploration and playtesting of creative ideas.

Definitely.


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[Cap'n Kobold]

Some thoughts:

More skills: The Fighter doesn't have the expertise in a few focused fields as the Rogue or Bard, but as a relatively mundane class, skills are there go-to in non-combat situations. They won't tread on the Rogue's toes, but it will give them much more to do effectively in many situations.

Someone suggested granting two backgrounds to the Fighter. This would grant these additional skills, plus a bit more flavour and social options. I think that its a good idea.

Help action: More than any other class, the Fighter is used to fighting and working alongside comrades. When the Fighter makes a Help Action in combat or using a skill in which they are proficient, their ally may add the fighter's proficiency bonus to their rolls. This does not stack with Expertise or similar effects.
The Fighter may substitute a help action for an attack rather than requiring their normal action. This allows the Fighter to make multiple Help actions in a round if they have the Extra Attack ability.
(I wondered about making this a variation on the rogue's cunning action, with Help as a bonus action rather than adding proficiency again. However this interferes with 2-weapon fighting too much. This also may interfere with Sentinal and protection fighting styles.)

Champions: In a game without multiclassing, I grant the Champion's full crit range improvement at 3rd level. Its not overpowered, and it still scales with level due to Extra Attack. I'm not sure of a way to prevent it being a very powerful dip in a game with multiclassing though.

I'm against giving the general archetypes (Champion, Battlemaster) a strong, specific flavour, because this will reduce their flexibility: - a big strength of those fighter archetypes compared to the rest of the classes.
I'm also not a fan of giving the Fighter a flat social bonus with common folk because they aren't shifty/angry/pious/whatever other classes supposedly come across as. - Characters do not have a label showing what class they are tattooed on their foreheads.

 

[hejtmane]

While I really like 5e overall I miss parts of the large weapon table in 1e (not all of it that thing could be unruly); I miss that the fighters got access to more weapons they were trained on that they got more access by levels instead of all basic weapons and all martial weapon access. That was one of my main complaints about 5e was the weapon table and how they did proficiency in weapons

That was one of the best parts of 1e and fighters

 

[Horwath]

When I think "Champion" I think of 1v1 challenges. The guy who goes out in front of the shield wall and challenges the other side. Or the one who fights for the Queen (or Tirion Lannister, as the case may be) in a fight to decide a legal issue. David v. Goliath. Viper vs. Mountain, etc.

What would this look like? Maybe if you issue a challenge before combat actually starts you get Advantage on Persuade. Not sure what happens next...it gets complicated. But something along those lines.

Agree.

champion should have been named Soldier subclass.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I've been doing work on the Battle Master and re-working many of the maneuvers in order to create a wider swathe of "martial attacker" types. To do this I've been incorporating and adapting some features from other classes (the Bard's inspiration, the Barbarian's Reckless Attack) into new maneuvers as well in order to give more options for the weapon-users. I'm currently up to 20 maneuvers and have begun creating the "dueling schools" or "kits" that have select maneuvers pre-chosen to select from (since I'm not using the Battle Master's option of just selecting any maneuvers they want.) My maneuvers are currently:

-Aim- When you make a weapon attack roll against a creature, you can use your bonus action and expend one superiority die to take careful aim and make it easier to hit. Roll the superiority die and add it to your attack roll. You can use this maneuver after making the attack roll, but before any effects of the attack are applied.

-Charge- When you take the Dash action and end your movement adjacent to a creature, you can expend one superiority die to attack that enemy. Make a single melee weapon attack against that opponent and add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll if you hit.

-Cleave- When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to damage another creature with the same attack. Choose another creature within 5 feet of the original target and within your reach. If the original attack roll would also hit the second creature, both creatures take damage equal to the number you roll on your superiority die.

-Direct- When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can forgo one of your attacks to direct one of your companions to strike. Use a bonus action and expend one superiority die to choose a friendly creature which can see or hear you. That creature can immediately use its reaction to make one weapon attack, adding the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll.

-Disarm- When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to disarm the target, forcing it to drop one item of your choice that it’s holding. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll, and the target must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, it drops the object you choose. The object lands at its feet.

-Distract- When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to distract the creature, giving your allies an opening. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll and the next attack roll against the target by an attacker other than you has advantage if the attack is made before the start of your next turn.

-Evade- When you move, you can expend one superiority die to make it more difficult for other creatures to hit you. Roll the superiority die and add the number rolled to your AC until you stop moving.

-Feint- When you make a melee weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action on your turn to feint, throwing your target off-balance and making it easier to hit it. You have advantage on your next attack roll against that creature. If that attack hits, add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll.

-Goad- When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to goad the target into attacking you. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll, and the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the target has disadvantage on all attack rolls against targets other than you until the end of your next turn.

-Hook- When you succeed with a grapple check against a creature, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to restrain the target. You add the superiority die as bonus damage to the grapple, and the target must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you restrain the target.

-Inspire- You can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action to inspire an ally. Choose one creature within 60 feet of you who can hear you. Once within the next 10 minutes, the creature can roll the superiority die and add the number rolled to one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw it makes.
 
-Lunge- When you make a melee weapon attack on your turn, you can expend one superiority die to lunge forward, widening your opening for the attack but leaving you open for easier attacks in return. You increase your reach for your attack by 5 feet and gain advantage on the attack roll, and if you hit, you add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll. However, all attacks made against you until the start of your next turn also have advantage.

-Maneuver- When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to maneuver one of your comrades into a more advantageous position. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll, and you choose a friendly creature which can see or hear you. That creature can use its reaction to move up to half its speed without provoking opportunity attacks from the target of your attack.

-Menace- When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to frighten the target. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll, and the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it is frightened of you until the end of your next turn.

-Parry- When another creature damages you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction and expend one superiority die to parry part of the attack to cause less damage. Reduce the damage by the number you roll on your superiority die + your Dexterity modifier.

-Push- When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to drive the target back. You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll, and if the target is Large or smaller, it must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you push the target up to 15 feet away from you.

-Rally- On your turn, you can use a bonus action and expend one superiority die to bolster the resolve of one of your companions. When you do so, choose a friendly creature which can see or hear you. That creature gains temporary hit points equal to the superiority die roll + your Charisma modifier.

-Riposte- When a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can expend one superiority die to make an immediate counterattack. Use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the creature and if you hit, you add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll.

-Tag- When a creature makes a melee weapon attack against you, you can use your reaction to expend one superiority die and confuse him with some derring-do. The creature must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, roll the superiority die and subtract it from the creature's attack roll. You can use this maneuver after the creature makes their attack roll, but before any effects of the attack are applied.

-Trip- When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to knock the target down. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll, and if the target is Large or smaller, it must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you knock the target prone.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I've about given up on my idea of giving Fighters some kind of advantage when dealing with "normal" people and NPCs. The other classes are weird, shifty, and unknown. Fighters are just regular people, only super.

It's a solid idea, and it evokes the earliest incarnations of the fighter, that were 'barons' or became 'lords' and attracted followers, just with some actual rationale - all it needs is decent mechanics.

I'm liking your idea about Fighters being able to train allies. I've also been thinking about fighters having the knowledge to upgrade weapons and armor. This could be useful in a more survivalist game, but what if fighters could upgrade the lower quality medium and heavy armors to upgrade them to better armors, this way some of the stuff salvaged from humanoid enemies could be useful.

Fighters can use weapons to much greater effect than ordinary people, it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to use shields & armor to better effect. Shields could be just skill, but armor being modifications could make sense - armor that's strengthened in some areas, less restrictive in others to complement that particular fighter's style, for instance.

In my own ideas of the classes, where I try desperately to give each class a unique playstyle, I envision the Paladin as the one with the mechanical 1 on 1 abilities. In 5E, that's only really doable with a spell and the Order of the Crown (why did that not get reprinted in Xanthar's?)). I do think it would be cool, and very Championy, but it might be outside of their "simple" structure. You know?

Sometimes, "Simple" seems to be an alternate spelling of "Suck."
Seriously, though, there could conceivably be a simple way to handle 1:1 challenge. Maybe the champion gets a bonus when no other ally is adjacent to himself or an enemy he attacks. Maybe, in that situation, the Champion can use his Reaction of the enemy tries to get away from him?

Treating the "Champion" like the "Hero" would be interesting. I'm not sure how that could apply without it being complex or requiring the story to go in certain directions.

Action Point, Second Wind, & Indomitable all point to heroics. Inspiration can tend that way, too... an ability or two that build on those could work.

I'd want to expand their method for learning maneuvers, though, maybe allow them to switch out prepared maneuvers like casters; preparing katas or meditating or practicing forms.

The BM could do with a lot more detail/interest to the maneuver sub-system. Currently, it's OK, even a bit much at 3rd level, but then never gets /better/. Sure, the CS dice get a little bigger, but this is 5e BA, a slightly bigger bonus isn't the point of advancing in level.

The BM needs level-gated maneuvers that get genuinely better. Maybe new maneuvers to choose from each 'Tier.'

I'd be more than open to each of the subclasses getting another skill. Champions could get Intimidation or Persuasion, Battle Masters could get Insight or Perception, Eldritch Knights could get Arcana.

Those make sense.

If I gave Remarkable Athlete to all Fighters...

Non combat uses for Superiority Dice is definitely on the drawing board now.

One boat that I'm thinking 5e may have missed is standardizing a die-adds-to-checks mechanic and using it different places. There are several un-related mechanics, CS dice, Bardic inspiration, Bless & similar spells, that add a die to a check under certain circumstances. There could be more, and it could have been presented in a consistent way so you could have some general rules and not have to spell it all out every time.

For instance, instead of second wind and indomitable and remarkable athlete each just kinda flailing around for how to work, all fighters could have gotten CS dice, and been able to use them to self-heal (second wind), or enhance the odd skill check out of combat, but then other abilities could also use them - indomitable could have added a CS die to a save, remarkable athlete to any physical stat check, trained or not, etc... If bless & non-bardic inspiration also worked the same way, then when a fighter got a die like that, he could divert it to any ability that used CS dice...