D&D 5E Expanded Fighter

[Xeviat]

Hi everyone. “Fixing” the Fighter is one of my pet projects, and it’s a thread that come up here more and more often. For sake of keeping this thread on track, I’d like to limit the discussion to how to add more flavor and identity to the Fighter, not if it’s required (or if classes like the Barbarian need a touch up too).

My goal here is to add a little more character to the Fighter, primarily to give them something unique to do out of combat. Of course there are backgrounds and they work well to give some identity to the Fighter, but everyone gets those, they aren’t unique. I’d also like to give the base fighter more options in combat without complicating them too much.

So, here are the ideas I’ve been tossing around:

Know Your Enemy
First, I’m strongly considering making the “Know Your Enemy” ability from the Battle Master a basic Fighter ability. I’m likely going to make it work quicker, too, and have it work to help the Fighter identify who in a group are threats, who is calling the shots, and who has hostile intent. This is the kind of awareness that we see in many warrior characters in stories. It would give the Fighter something unique to do in social scenes: “Look at the way that noble walks, he’s clearly an expert swordsman”; “the king doesn’t know how to hold that sword, it’s just for show, but the queen is sitting unusually and is probably hiding a dagger”; “I’ve seen that look in their eyes before, they mean us harm”.

Along with moving the Ranger and Paladin’s Fighting Styles to 1st level (they get spells at second level, but no offensive oomph at first), this would sit side by side nicely with Paladins’ “Detect Evil” as a unique flavorful ability for the elite warriors that are Fighters.

Subclass Identity
Second, the Fighter’s subclasses need more identity. What does it mean to be a Champion? A Battle Master? An Eldritch Knight? These three classes are interesting, because they could have been shaped to be the Cha, Wis, and Int Fighters (though I can see all three in the Battle Master).

What is a Champion? Well Merriam-Webster says:

Definition of champion

1 :warrior, fighter a champion of his king
2 :a militant advocate or defender a champion of civil rights
3 ne that does battle for another's rights or honor
God will raise me up a champion —Sir Walter Scott
4 :a winner of first prize or first place in competition a tennis champion; also ne who shows marked superiority a champion at selling

They shouldn’t just be the generic fighter. They need identity. Champions are the best. People love winners. Our Champions of today (war heroes, sports stars, political figures) are loved by the people. That should be leveraged to add some flavor to them.

+1 Crit Range is a terrible 3rd level ability. I mean it’s good, but it’s weaker than +1 to hit and worth less than half a feat on its own (unless it’s part of some crit fishing build). Let’s give them some kind of passive inspirational buff to their allies. Give them advantage on persuasion checks with the common folk. Whose Champion are they?

Then there’s the Battle Master.

This subclass reminds me of a Monk-Fighter, one whose weapon techniques are an art-form. That’s why I like their artisan tool proficiency. It makes me think of fantasy samurai, romance knights, and other warrior poets.

Since I stole their 7th-level ability, what else should they get?

Then there’s the Eldritch Knight.

They already have quite a bit of utility from their spells, but they are so few per day that I cannot imagine someone using too many for non-combat things. Maybe they’ll have some mobility stuff that aids in exploration. But, who are they? Who are they the knights of? Exploring that could aid in expanding upon their identity.

——

So, what are your thoughts on stealing “Know Your Enemy” for the Fighter as a whole? What would you give the Battle Master in its place? Who is the Champion a champion of?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tony Vargas]

Hi everyone. “Fixing” the Fighter is one of my pet projects..."

::Rolf the Dog voice:: Never say 'fixing' in the same sentence with 'pet...'

, and it’s a thread that come up here more and more often.

Not as much as Fighter SUX on Gleemax, back when the fighter class design was at it's cleanest & most elegant....

For sake of keeping this thread on track, I’d like to limit the discussion to how to add more flavor

Tabasco? Mono-sodium glutamate?

and identity to the Fighter, not if it’s required (or if classes like the Barbarian need a touch up too).

Bar coded serial numbers? They're unique identifiers...

... OK, I'm going to try to be serious....

My goal here is to add a little more character to the Fighter, primarily to give them something unique to do out of combat. Of course there are backgrounds and they work well to give some identity to the Fighter, but everyone gets those, they aren’t unique. I’d also like to give the base fighter more options in combat without complicating them too much.

So, here are the ideas I’ve been tossing around

In addition to those, something that's come up once or twice is that the (non-EK) fighter is arguably the most approachable class, not just to new players, but to most NPCs (not supernatural, doesn't rage, isn't shifty). So giving it some extra cred in the interaction pillar could be justified that way.

First, I’m strongly considering making the “Know Your Enemy” ability from the Battle Master a basic Fighter ability. I’m likely going to make it work quicker, too, and have it work to help the Fighter identify who in a group are threats, who is calling the shots, and who has hostile intent. This is the kind of awareness that we see in many warrior characters in stories. It would give the Fighter something unique to do in social scenes: “Look at the way that noble walks, he’s clearly an expert swordsman”; “the king doesn’t know how to hold that sword, it’s just for show, but the queen is sitting unusually and is probably hiding a dagger”; “I’ve seen that look in their eyes before, they mean us harm”.

What are they calling 'sense motive' these days? Whatever, some sort of mechanical advantage (like the advantage mechanic) with that?

...can't do it... must make more jokes...

Second, the Fighter’s subclasses need more identity. What does it mean to be a Champion?

It means you've paid your dues, time after time and done your sentence but committed no crime and made a few bad mistakes and had your share of sand kicked in your face. But you've come through. (And need just go on and on, and on, and on)
It means you'll keep on fighting 'til the end, and that you have no time for losers...

A Battle Master?

85 tons and a PPC.

An Eldritch Knight?

It means you've sworn fealty to an Eldritch Lord.


...OK, seriously, back to being somewhat serious...

What is a Champion? Well Merriam-Webster says:
They shouldn’t just be the generic fighter. They need identity. Champions are the best. People love winners. Our Champions of today (war heroes, sports stars, political figures) are loved by the people. That should be leveraged to add some flavor to them.

What about the first three definitions, they seem a lot better. The Champion is someone who fights for others. Hey, it sounds better than 'meat shield.'

Then there’s the Battle Master.

This subclass reminds me of a Monk-Fighter, one whose weapon techniques are an art-form. That’s why I like their artisan tool proficiency. It makes me think of fantasy samurai, romance knights, and other warrior poets.

Since I stole their 7th-level ability, what else should they get?

How about some out-of-combat abilities keying off their CS dice. Maybe they can use their CS dice on social checks vs NPCs they have sized up using Know Your Enemy?

Then there’s the Eldritch Knight.
They already have quite a bit of utility from their spells, but they are so few per day that I cannot imagine someone using too many for non-combat things.

They're limited to Abjuration/Evocation, too. Maybe let them learn/prep spells & use rituals, more or less like wizards?

Maybe they’ll have some mobility stuff that aids in exploration. But, who are they? Who are they the knights of? Exploring that could aid in expanding upon their identity.

They were an order of High-Elves/Eladrin, originally, IIRC.

So, what are your thoughts on stealing “Know Your Enemy” for the Fighter as a whole? What would you give the Battle Master in its place?

I'm OK with it, I guess, it's not like it's a huge deal.
Maybe an ability to train/drill an ally, loaning it a CS die it can use to perform one maneuver, once, in the next combat, perhaps specifically against an enemy the BM knows about in advance, or has used Know Your Enemy on?

Who is the Champion a champion of?

The Champion could be the Champion of his party, or at least the squishies in his party - he fights for them, afterall.

 

[Guest 6801328]

When I think "Champion" I think of 1v1 challenges. The guy who goes out in front of the shield wall and challenges the other side. Or the one who fights for the Queen (or Tirion Lannister, as the case may be) in a fight to decide a legal issue. David v. Goliath. Viper vs. Mountain, etc.

What would this look like? Maybe if you issue a challenge before combat actually starts you get Advantage on Persuade. Not sure what happens next...it gets complicated. But something along those lines.

 

[Eubani]

I think that creating some social and exploration based maneuvers for the Battlemaster would go a long way and could be added without changing any Fighter rules for those who are squeamish about doing so.

 

[Stalker0]

Personally I don't think the Champions crit ability is bad. Its very distinctive...very very very few things get boosts to crit range in the game.

That said, the champion could use some other flavor love so I am on board, but I don't think you need to toss that ability.

 

[Alexemplar]

Totally 100% agree with making Know Your Enemy a level 1st ability. I also think they could use another skill proficiency or two. There's no way they're going to compete with a Rogue in their chosen field thanks to Expertise, but they can be backup in another field.

As far as making the Champion more flavorful...

I would have suggested something like the Folk Hero background's bonus, but that's taken so... Maybe going with the idea that you're a kind of destined hero/chosen one. Chosen for what? Well you'll have to figure that out. I'd like to keep the mechanics simple, as that's a big draw of the subclass, so I'd stick to static bonuses across the board in social/athletics skills to make up for the fact that you won't have as many options/tricks to deal with different situations.

And replacing the Weaponmaster's 7th level ability...

I'd let them get some kind of weapon bond. Something that lets them get a favored weapon and while wielding it they get certain bonuses. Maybe even treat it as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. Or let them get a bonus on maneuvers used against someone they analyzed with Know Your Enemy.

Since this would step on the toes of the Eldritch Knight's weapon bond, I think they should get the ability to make whatever weapon they wield deal fire/cold/lightning damage instead of bludgeoning/piercing/slashing. It think it would help them feel more like a magical knight as opposed to a Fighter that just casts spells and nearly as many creatures resist those elemental damage types as are vulnerable to them. Also, Eldritch Knights should totally be able to channel a spell through their weapon attacks.

 

[The Old Crow]

So, what are your thoughts on stealing “Know Your Enemy” for the Fighter as a whole? What would you give the Battle Master in its place? Who is the Champion a champion of?

I like the idea. I had been thinking of giving Remarkable Athlete to all Fighters, to show their physical prowess, and if the Fighter gets it also from a second source (well, basically the Champion subclass) then it applies to rolls the Fighter is proficient in too. But I kinda like the keen minded flavor of Know Your Enemy.

I think Tony Vargas's idea to give Battle Masters a way to use Combat Superiority dice to influence situations involving those the Fighter has sized up with Know Your Enemy is good.

 

[Xeviat]

Ha ha, very funny [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION].

In addition to those, something that's come up once or twice is that the (non-EK) fighter is arguably the most approachable class, not just to new players, but to most NPCs (not supernatural, doesn't rage, isn't shifty). So giving it some extra cred in the interaction pillar could be justified that way.


What are they calling 'sense motive' these days? Whatever, some sort of mechanical advantage (like the advantage mechanic) with that?


What about the first three definitions, they seem a lot better. The Champion is someone who fights for others. Hey, it sounds better than 'meat shield.'


How about some out-of-combat abilities keying off their CS dice. Maybe they can use their CS dice on social checks vs NPCs they have sized up using Know Your Enemy?


They're limited to Abjuration/Evocation, too. Maybe let them learn/prep spells & use rituals, more or less like wizards?
They were an order of High-Elves/Eladrin, originally, IIRC.


I'm OK with it, I guess, it's not like it's a huge deal.
Maybe an ability to train/drill an ally, loaning it a CS die it can use to perform one maneuver, once, in the next combat, perhaps specifically against an enemy the BM knows about in advance, or has used Know Your Enemy on?
The Champion could be the Champion of his party, or at least the squishies in his party - he fights for them, afterall.

I've about given up on my idea of giving Fighters some kind of advantage when dealing with "normal" people and NPCs. The other classes are weird, shifty, and unknown. Fighters are just regular people, only super.

I'm liking your idea about Fighters being able to train allies. I've also been thinking about fighters having the knowledge to upgrade weapons and armor. This could be useful in a more survivalist game, but what if fighters could upgrade the lower quality medium and heavy armors to upgrade them to better armors, this way some of the stuff salvaged from humanoid enemies could be useful. That and training allies, giving them some kind of bonus for the day you worked with them, really does fit a lot of characters. I know Aragorn is THE Ranger, but I'm reminded of Aragorn teaching the hobbits how to use their swords in the movies.

When I think "Champion" I think of 1v1 challenges. The guy who goes out in front of the shield wall and challenges the other side. Or the one who fights for the Queen (or Tirion Lannister, as the case may be) in a fight to decide a legal issue. David v. Goliath. Viper vs. Mountain, etc.


What would this look like? Maybe if you issue a challenge before combat actually starts you get Advantage on Persuade. Not sure what happens next...it gets complicated. But something along those lines.

In my own ideas of the classes, where I try desperately to give each class a unique playstyle, I envision the Paladin as the one with the mechanical 1 on 1 abilities. In 5E, that's only really doable with a spell and the Order of the Crown (why did that not get reprinted in Xanthar's?)). I do think it would be cool, and very Championy, but it might be outside of their "simple" structure. You know?

I think that creating some social and exploration based maneuvers for the Battlemaster would go a long way and could be added without changing any Fighter rules for those who are squeamish about doing so.

I could easily see boosts of endurance, allowing things like bonus action jumps or dashes, along with Superiority Dice to Str checks or maybe even physical saves; this could help with exploration scenes and dealing with traps and such. Intimidation bonuses and Insight bonuses could be easy to justify as well, maybe even all saves.

I'd want to expand their method for learning maneuvers, though, maybe allow them to switch out prepared maneuvers like casters; preparing katas or meditating or practicing forms.

Personally I don't think the Champions crit ability is bad. Its very distinctive...very very very few things get boosts to crit range in the game.


That said, the champion could use some other flavor love so I am on board, but I don't think you need to toss that ability.

I only mean it's bad because it's weak. +1 to crit range would be equivalent statistically to +1 to hit if crits did x2 damage, but since most crits do less than x2 damage (unless you have a lot of bonus crit functions), it's weaker than +1 to hit. +1 to hit is less than half a feat, arguably very much less since +2 Str gives +1 to hit, +1 damage per attack, +1 Str checks, +1 Str saves, and some carrying capacity and armor capacity increases. Then there's the whole discussion of comparing +1 to crit range vs. 4d8 superiority dice per short rest and ... well, we've had that before.

I have no intention of tossing their Improved Critical ability. But, they have a lot of room at 3rd level for something more, something unique to them. I'm strongly thinking of something tied to Charisma, to encourage them to have useful non-combat ability scores.

Totally 100% agree with making Know Your Enemy a level 1st ability. I also think they could use another skill proficiency or two. There's no way they're going to compete with a Rogue in their chosen field thanks to Expertise, but they can be backup in another field.


As far as making the Champion more flavorful...


I would have suggested something like the Folk Hero background's bonus, but that's taken so... Maybe going with the idea that you're a kind of destined hero/chosen one. Chosen for what? Well you'll have to figure that out. I'd like to keep the mechanics simple, as that's a big draw of the subclass, so I'd stick to static bonuses across the board in social/athletics skills to make up for the fact that you won't have as many options/tricks to deal with different situations.


And replacing the Weaponmaster's 7th level ability...


I'd let them get some kind of weapon bond. Something that lets them get a favored weapon and while wielding it they get certain bonuses. Maybe even treat it as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. Or let them get a bonus on maneuvers used against someone they analyzed with Know Your Enemy.


Since this would step on the toes of the Eldritch Knight's weapon bond, I think they should get the ability to make whatever weapon they wield deal fire/cold/lightning damage instead of bludgeoning/piercing/slashing. It think it would help them feel more like a magical knight as opposed to a Fighter that just casts spells and nearly as many creatures resist those elemental damage types as are vulnerable to them. Also, Eldritch Knights should totally be able to channel a spell through their weapon attacks.

I'm comfortable with the Fighter's number of trained skills, but I'd be more than open to each of the subclasses getting another skill. Champions could get Intimidation or Persuasion, Battle Masters could get Insight or Perception, Eldritch Knights could get Arcana. 2 is the base number of skills and a lot of classes have 2 skills. But, then again, fighters are the normal people who just do normal stuff better, so having more trained skills than a Paladin miiiight be okay. I'd probably be inclined to go through and give some of those skills a fixed skill. I always forget about the skills from backgrounds, though.

Treating the "Champion" like the "Hero" would be interesting. I'm not sure how that could apply without it being complex or requiring the story to go in certain directions.

I'd totally dig a Weapon Master's Weapon Bond. Again, i always looked at the Weapon Master as a kind of Kensei. I actually really miss the fighters having Weapon Mastery as a class ability; I know why it went away, but I do miss it. Ah, sacred beef.

Allowing EKs to change elemental types on their weapon would be a nifty thing. I've allowed them to use their weapons as a focus and for their somatic components too.

I like the idea. I had been thinking of giving Remarkable Athlete to all Fighters, to show their physical prowess, and if the Fighter gets it also from a second source (well, basically the Champion subclass) then it applies to rolls the Fighter is proficient in too. But I kinda like the keen minded flavor of Know Your Enemy.


I think Tony Vargas's idea to give Battle Masters a way to use Combat Superiority dice to influence situations involving those the Fighter has sized up with Know Your Enemy is good.

Thanks. If I gave Remarkable Athlete to all Fighters, I'd really want to give something similar to Barbarians, but for Str only. Then again, they do get advantage to Str checks while Raging, so they do already have something (and if I were making more adjustments, I'd switch Barbarian Rage to 1/short rest at low levels, 2/short later, and ultimately unlimited; this would help them feel free to use it in exploration scenes to get a boost of power; sometimes you have to smash a door down).

Non combat uses for Superiority Dice is definitely on the drawing board now.

 

[Alexemplar]

Oh, and the optional rules actions like climbing onto bigger creatures, cleaving through creatures, disarming, shoving aside, etc should have been in the PHB right alongside grappling, the help action, etc. That's exactly the kind of stuff people like to do to make combat more dynamic and also the kind of stuff many DMs like to saddle with so many ridiculous penalties so as to make it not worth the effort.

I'm also inclined to make Combat Maneuvers a general thing anybody in combat can do, with the advantage of Battlemasters being that they can do it AND get an extra dX of damage. I haven't really explored that much.

 

[Stalker0]

I think some of the battlemaster maneuvers could have int or cha abilities added in, so it gives a little more mechanical support for people putting points in those stats