Expedition to Castle Ravenloft

[JRRNeiklot]

Not sure what you're going on about. Restoration existed in previous editions of D&D, and level drain exists in the current one.

I've seen characters lose levels after failing their Fort saves. They've got a pretty healthy respect for the powers of undead without them being excessively cheesy and...lame.

Restoration was a 7th level spell, and only brought you to the bare minimum of the level. One restoration spell was required for each level restored. A tenth level fighter with 740,000 experience points could only be restored to 500,001 experience points. And you lost levels with no save. All a 4 hd wight had to do was hit you once and BOOM! 100,00 exp or more gone. Forever. This scared the hell out of players. And made them very, very cautious in modules like Ravenloft. They'd creep through it like it was a Cthulu adventure. In 3e the save is usually dc 13 or so to regain your level. Very easily made, even by a low level wizard. And there are many ways to make this save easier. Cloak of resistance, amulet of health, etc.

As long as these rules exist, it will be very, very hard to produce a horror adventure. As I said, the new Ravenloft might be a very good adventure, but without REAL level draining, it just ain't gonna be scary.

 

[billd91]

I won't deny that 1st/2nd edition energy drain was a frightening thing, but I always hated it. Losing a level and then being worse at skills you might have been using for weeks or losing proficiency in a weapon was all goofy nonsense as far as I was concerned.

I had started using a house rule very much like current level draining - amassing negative levels and inflicting penalties to actions but not really costing the loss of an experience level. I didn't have a save the next morning for recovering them, though. Restoration was still necessary.

The last time my players encountered a vampire, I think he distributed 4 negative levels around the table before he was put down (PCs were 9th level). Given his resources and setting, I'm betting Strahd can inflict many more. And over the next few weeks, we'll see if the energy drainers of Ravenloft can put the fear of death in a group of 3rd edition adventurers.

I think they can...

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

As long as these rules exist, it will be very, very hard to produce a horror adventure. As I said, the new Ravenloft might be a very good adventure, but without REAL level draining, it just ain't gonna be scary.

Horror is not about level drain. Good lord, I'm scaring the crap out of my players with birds currently.

 

[Klaus]

I will buy it and read it and likely enjoy it.
Bit I will never play it because my hate of vampires knows no limit.

Jinx

But... but... This is the perfect opportunity for you to vent that hatred! Just take Favored Enemy: Undead!

 

[jaerdaph]

Horror is not about level drain. Good lord, I'm scaring the crap out of my players with birds currently.

Sigged!

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Horror is not about level drain. Good lord, I'm scaring the crap out of my players with birds currently.

I'd be interested in learning how you do it. Permanent damage to their characters is about the only way I know to scare players. Mord's Disjunction might bring about the same feel, but that's not something you can (or should) use often. Perhaps mood lighting and music would work, but I don't really have time to set that kind of stuff up.

 

[Sunderstone]

I wouldnt mind seeing Barovia done in the same manner as Tilagos Island in the AoW campaign ( in Library of the Last Resort . A small area as its own demiplane without all of RL attatched to it.
Shoehorning Ravenloft into Greyhawk should be alot easier than FR or Ebb, IMO.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It sounds like your players are too aware of what's going on. Fear and horror primarily rely on a fear of the unknown. Not understanding what's going on and knowing that they'll be able to survive it is a basic principle you can use on any level of characters, in any setting.

You can go a long way with what amount to zero-level templates. Let something talk when it's not supposed to. Put a human face on an animal. Change a creature from nocturnal to diurnal, etc.

Even for high-level characters, you don't need to cheese away their divinations, etc., so much as misdirect them. A commune spell about the wrong subject gives as little information as no commune spell at all.

 

[Felon]

Restoration was a 7th level spell, and only brought you to the bare minimum of the level. One restoration spell was required for each level restored. A tenth level fighter with 740,000 experience points could only be restored to 500,001 experience points. And you lost levels with no save. All a 4 hd wight had to do was hit you once and BOOM! 100,00 exp or more gone. Forever. This scared the hell out of players. And made them very, very cautious in modules like Ravenloft. They'd creep through it like it was a Cthulu adventure. In 3e the save is usually dc 13 or so to regain your level. Very easily made, even by a low level wizard. And there are many ways to make this save easier. Cloak of resistance, amulet of health, etc.

As long as these rules exist, it will be very, very hard to produce a horror adventure. As I said, the new Ravenloft might be a very good adventure, but without REAL level draining, it just ain't gonna be scary.

Sounds like this is what you're saying: old-edition level drain offered no chance of defense, and moreover had an effect that was wildly disproportionate to the level of monster that was using it, to the reward attained by defeating said monster, and to the level of the remedy for it.

In other words, this indictment of "lameness" against 3e's version of level-draining is that it's not a complete load of BS, and it's "very, very hard" for a DM to scare players without a BS gimmick.

Mr. Neiklot, I gotta wonder how many times as a player you got nailed with level drain love-tap and was set back a few hundred thou XP, and how cool you thought it was.

 

[Felon]

I'd be interested in learning how you do it. Permanent damage to their characters is about the only way I know to scare players. Mord's Disjunction might bring about the same feel, but that's not something you can (or should) use often. Perhaps mood lighting and music would work, but I don't really have time to set that kind of stuff up.

Fear is best engendered through creating an atmosphere of dread, not by relying exclusively upon the threat of some monster jumping out and irrevocably damaging the characters with an easily-delivered no-save cheeseball gimmick. :\

Sounds like this style of DM'ing is more based on aggrivating players than scaring them.