D&D 5E Experiences with a PC garrote weapon?

[Quickleaf]

I'm attempting to design a garrote weapon that a PC could use – by player request. And I was wondering if any of the ENWorld brain trust had experience adapting garrotes to 5e? How did it go? What worked and what didn't work?

.....

That was the Tl;dr version of my question. I realize that implementing the garrote specifically is a contentious issue, where the usual consensus is "it's really hard." And yet, here I am trying.

Here is my own design process so far...

My first step was surveying the existing garrotes in the game – the ettercap's Web Garrote (Monster Manual, 2014), the large sahuagin NPC Ghauld (Princes of the Apocalypse, 2015), and the meazel (Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, 2018)...

Web Garrote. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one Medium or Small creature against which the ettercap has advantage on the attack roll. Hit: 4 (1d4+2) bludgeoning damage, and the target is grappled (escape DC 12). Until this grapple ends, the target can't breathe, and the ettercap has advantage on attack rolls against it.

Garrote (Ghauld). Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one Medium or Small creature against which Ghauld has advantage on the attack roll. Hit: 9 (2d4+9) bludgeoning damage, and the target is grappled (escape DC 15). Until the grapple ends, the target can't breathe, and Ghald has advantage on attack rolls against it.

Garrote (Meazel). Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target of the meazel's size or smaller. Hit: 6 (1d6+3) bludgeoning damage, and the target is grappled (escape DC 13 with disadvantage). Until the grapple ends, the target takes 10 (2d6+3) bludgeoning damage at the start of each of the meazel's turns. The meazel can't make weapon attacks while grappling a creature this way.

The garrote used by the ettercap and Ghauld are basically the same, just Ghauld's is larger. The features of this garrote are...

• Requires wielder to have advantage in order to even make the garrote attack. Obviously, only requiring advantage isn't enough of a limit for PCs (who have more options to gain advantage than monsters), because then a barbarian could just Reckless Attack all day with the garrote, or you could knock someone prone with a Battle Master maneuver, or just cast true strike, and that would probably go against the intended design of a sneaky murderous weapon.
• Target = medium or small (i.e. the wielder’s size or smaller).
• Damage = 1d4 + STR/DEX (unclear).
• Target is also grappled. Not explicitly called out as a bonus action, but looking at Tavern Brawler that would be closest PC adaptation.
• While grappled, target can’t breathe and wielder has advantage to attack it. Being unable to breathe implies the target is not holding its breath, which means its a matter of rounds – not minutes – before it drops to 0 HP due to suffocation.
• Ghald has Multiattack (x3) but garrote is not listed on his Multiattack, suggesting it can only be used once per turn.

However, the garrote used by the meazel is noticeably different...

• Does not require having advantage to use.
• Damage = 1d6 + DEX
• The target has disadvantage to escape the grapple. This may be intended as a "hidden trait" of the meazel and not a propert of the garrote itself, but it's unclear.
• Target can breathe, and wielder does not have advantage to attack it.
• While grappled, the target takes 2d6 + DEX auto-damage at start of the wielder’s turns. However, the wielder can’t make weapon attacks while grappling with the garrote. Auto-damage, like from witch bolt, should require an action from the PC. Also, it would be nice if things like Sneak Attack damage could apply...but that depends on several factors.
• Somehow this garrote is dealing damage without impeding the target's ability to breathe. One of my players likened it to a MMA blood choke achieved by applying pressure to the carotid.

Spoiler: House Rules

As I'm doing this design, there are two house rules we've incorporated that I'll mention so you have the whole picture...

• Exotic Weapons: The garrote will be an exotic weapon. There are a handful of other exotic weapons. You gain training in an exotic weapon by either opting to roll "old school" 3d6 in a row stats (there are several boons you get to choose from to incentivize taking this risk, proficiency in 1 exotic weapon being one of them), taking the Weapon Master feat, taking one of several homebrew feats (Champion of the Arena and Thrown Weapon Master), or having a subclass feature that allows you to select proficiency in any weapon. Pact of the Blade Warlocks need to gain the exotic weapon proficiency independent of their pact feature in order to conjure, for example, a pact garrote.
• Damage While Holding Breath: When a creature takes damage that forces air from its lungs – this is up the DM’s discretion, e.g. a crocodile’s crushing bite would qualify, but psychic damage probably wouldn’t – each point of damage it takes while holding its breath reduces the number of rounds it can hold it by an equivalent amount (i.e. 7 damage is -7 rounds).

I've gone through a couple iterations, and this is my latest version...

Garrote. (Exotic weapon; 1d6 bludgeoning; Finesse, Two-handed) In order to make an attack with the garrote, the target must be unaware of you or incapacitated. The target must be your size or smaller. You may only make one garrote attack per turn.
On a hit, you may make a special grapple check against the target as a bonus action; you may use Sleight of Hand instead of Athletics, if you wish. If the target is surprised, while grappled in this way, it can’t breathe. If the target is not surprised, then automatic damage you inflict against it with the garrote forces air from its lungs (see house rule).
If the target remains grappled on your turn, you may use your action to automatically deal 1d6 + your Dexterity or Strength modifier damage.

 

[Fenris-77]

Against an aware opponent I think the PC should probably have to successfully grapple or attack the enemy first, and could then attempt to garrote them. Or be attacking from unseen or whatever. I think the first option makes more sense from a mechanics standpoint, but you probably want to move outside the grapple rules for some of this. Grappling is pretty much a complete auto-win for anyone actually proficient in athletics, and as a result is enormously lopsided. I'd probably use something more like the concentration mechanic to maintain the garrote, although using grapple to initiate is fine.

The comp to a carotid choke is maybe not what I'd go for. A good carotid choke will reduce the target to unconsciousness well before asphyxia will. Actual physical damage is far more likely to occur from a windpipe choke too, or something like a garrote, than from a proper carotid choke.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

A similar monster attack for reference might be the "tentacle" attack of the choker (Mord's Tome of Foes). It's a little different than those explicit garrote attacks in that it imposes the restrained condition, but no asphyxiation unless it's a critical hit.

Tentacle. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d4 + 3) bludgeoning damage plus 3 (1d6) piercing damage. If the target is a Large or smaller creature, it is grappled (escape DC 15). Until this grapple ends, the target is restrained, and the choker can't use this tentacle on another target. The choker has two tentacles. If this attack is a critical hit, the target also can't breathe or speak until the grapple ends.

 

[Quickleaf]

Against an aware opponent I think the PC should probably have to successfully grapple or attack the enemy first, and could then attempt to garrote them. Or be attacking from unseen or whatever. I think the first option makes more sense from a mechanics standpoint, but you probably want to move outside the grapple rules for some of this. Grappling is pretty much a complete auto-win for anyone actually proficient in athletics, and as a result is enormously lopsided. I'd probably use something more like the concentration mechanic to maintain the garrote, although using grapple to initiate is fine.

The comp to a carotid choke is maybe not what I'd go for. A good carotid choke will reduce the target to unconsciousness well before asphyxia will. Actual physical damage is far more likely to occur from a windpipe choke too, or something like a garrote, than from a proper carotid choke.

Thanks for your feedback, Fenris!

Really like the concentration idea.

So, the way I've set it up is (a) first you must hit with an attack – which would have advantage due to the caveats above, then (b) you must succeed a modified grapple as a bonus action. So, there are two points for failure – at the attack and then at the grapple. Both must succeed.

Maybe I should phrase it more like on a hit you deal damage, and then get to make the grapple check, so at least you always deal damage on a hit, and then (if you roll well), you get the grapple effects.

 

[LordEntrails]

I think you are pretty close, but I'm skeptical on the house rule Damage while Holding Breath. That would practically make most commoners unconscious and dying the first round (of course the damage alone would do that). If that's intended...

Also, how does the target/victim get out? Just the grapple check, or can they break the garrote? Perhaps using a dagger or just strength to break it (even if it causes damage to themselves).

 

[Fenris-77]

That sounds workable. My hesitation about the grapple rules were just on the breaking the grapple to end the effects side, it works fine as a mechanic to set the garrote in the first place. I've always wanted a workable mechanic for this in 5E, so this got my attention.

 

[Charlaquin]

I’d just make a garrote an item rather than a weapon. Use to make a creature you have grappled unable to speak or breathe until the grapple ends. If the creature is surprised when you grapple it, it can’t hold its breath.

 

[Todd Roybark]

I had a PC rogue take the Tavern Brawler feat, and used a piece of wire as a garrote.
1d6 bludgeoning/Finesse/Two Handed is also the stats I used, for the improvised weapon.

Then it was just a matter of applying the rules.

 

[Fenris-77]

I’d just make a garrote an item rather than a weapon. Use to make a creature you have grappled unable to speak or breathe until the grapple ends. If the creature is surprised when you grapple it, it can’t hold its breath.

You don't think the grapple rules are too lopsided for this approach? I know I do. V ery much so in the case of expertise in Athletics anyway, so if you don't have any of that it might be more manageable. Even then, I think you'd see a lot of garroting going on.

 

[jgsugden]

My version:

All attacks with a garrotte are at disadvantage. It deals d6 + strength damage on a hit and if you hit, the target is grappled and must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC equal to 8 + our proficiency bonus plus your strength modifier. If the creature failed the saving throw, the duration it can hold its breath is halved (minimum 30 seconds) - see below.

Until the grapple is broken, the target takes d6+ strength damage at the start of each of its turns. If you take an action, bonus action or reaction while the target is grappled, the grapple ends.

While the creature is grappled, it must hold its breath. A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds). When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it begins to suffocate and can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again. For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes, or 90 seconds if it failed the saving throw. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 hit points.