D&D 5E Experiences with a PC garrote weapon?

[Jediking]

My player suggested using a static DC to resist/escape the garrote = 10 + DEX or STR, instead of an opposed check like grappling normally uses.

That works great, but usually DCs are set as 8+proficiency bonus+stat mod. Not a big change (sorry for nitpicking), but it does give higher CR creatures a bit more of a bump up in threat. I find they need any help they can get as characters level.


My 2cp for strangling/suffocating:

I always split them into either exploration or combat
Exploration: You can hold your breath for a number of minutes = 1 + Con mod (min. 1)
Combat: You can hold your breath for a number of rounds = 1 + Con mod (min. 1)

You can explain it however you want, but how I picture it matches up well enough in life to keep my verisimilitude - I like to picture it in combat as heavy exertion and panicking as your blood flow is interrupted by an attacker, which can knock someone unconscious in seconds in real life (as a BJJ practitioner I can vouch for this, it is extremely dangerous). In exploration you can be a bit calmer and hold your breath for minutes at a time - certain people have trained to do it for even longer!


Without getting into anything, this subject does touch on a lot of current issues going on - I hope everyone is able to find joy and safety in whatever gaming groups or areas you play in!

 

[Fenris-77]

My player suggested using a static DC to resist/escape the garrote = 10 + DEX or STR, instead of an opposed check like grappling normally uses.

I don't think your players would like it too much when every guardsman and thief they try to garrote is essentially popping out almost half the time. It takes the roll out of the player's hands, which isn't something I prefer when I get to chose. I'd prefer to have a mechanic where they get to roll their own fate, hence the save idea.

 

[Quickleaf]

Seems pretty straight-forward based on the Ettercap and Ghauld statblocks.
I allow any creature weapons (eg. Kuo-Toa's Pincer Staff or Lizardfolk's Spiked Shield) in my own games to be used by PCs, but class them as exotic weapons. Characters can gain proficiency in exotic weapons through the Weapon Master feat, retraining any skill proficiency, or through in-game play.

As far as using a Garrote as a standard weapon, it is simple enough to extract the stats and let your Bard have a use to bring piano wire. Sure there are creative ways to use it, but it won't break your game to allow it be used freely.

Martial Melee Weapon
Garrote, 1d4 bludgeoning, 1lb, two-handed, finesse, special

Special: to use this weapon you must have advantage on the attack roll against a creature your size or smaller. On a hit, the target is grappled (escape DC = 8+proficiency bonus+Str or Dex mod). Until this grapple ends, the target can't breathe and you have advantage on attack rolls against it.

I put in bold the parts of the weapon (translated 1:1 from MM/PotA) that are I believe are problematic when translated to player use.

If "can't breathe" means the creature is "out of breath or is choking", then it can only survive for a number of rounds equal to its CON modifier (minimum of 1 round); after this, it drops to 0 hit points on the start of its next turn. In others, words you now can can take down a high-HP creature such as a champion with 14 Constitution in just two rounds.

That seems very powerful to me. Maybe not to you?

By only requiring advantage, that makes circumventing HP to attack breath almost trivially easy for a PC. While PCs have access to all ways to get advantage that monsters do (e.g. being Hidden, the Help action, melee attacking a prone creature, and so forth), PCs also have many more ways to gain advantage – such as barbarian's Reckless Attack, knocking them prone with a Battle Master maneuver, mastermind rogue Helping as a bonus action, or casting guiding bolt or true strike. Advantage is extremely easy for PCs to get, much more so than it is for monsters.

If the effect – targeting breath instead of HP – is as powerful as I think it is, then "gating" garrote use to advantage is far too little of a gate for PCs.

 

[Quickleaf]

That works great, but usually DCs are set as 8+proficiency bonus+stat mod. Not a big change (sorry for nitpicking), but it does give higher CR creatures a bit more of a bump up in threat. I find they need any help they can get as characters level.


My 2cp for strangling/suffocating:

I always split them into either exploration or combat
Exploration: You can hold your breath for a number of minutes = 1 + Con mod (min. 1)
Combat: You can hold your breath for a number of rounds = 1 + Con mod (min. 1)

You can explain it however you want, but how I picture it matches up well enough in life to keep my verisimilitude - I like to picture it in combat as heavy exertion and panicking as your blood flow is interrupted by an attacker, which can knock someone unconscious in seconds in real life (as a BJJ practitioner I can vouch for this, it is extremely dangerous). In exploration you can be a bit calmer and hold your breath for minutes at a time - certain people have trained to do it for even longer!


Without getting into anything, this subject does touch on a lot of current issues going on - I hope everyone is able to find joy and safety in whatever gaming groups or areas you play in!

Thanks for mentioning that, Jediking. Yes, given current events, the timing of this question is poor, I agree. My girlfriend's high schooler sister in D.C. has been running a GoFundMe for a BLM protestor supply fund; very proud of her, and just donated yesterday.

Anyhow, we're starting a new campaign up Sunday, and my player was asking. What's a DM to do? I am trying to answer with "yes, and" or "yes, but", rather than saying "no, that's too much work to balance."

Thanks for sharing your exploration/combat distinction on holding breath. That's an interesting take. I can share it with them and see their thoughts. But it might be a simpler way of implementing the same thing my "Damage When Holding Breath" was aiming for.

 

[Charlaquin]

You don't think the grapple rules are too lopsided for this approach? I know I do. V ery much so in the case of expertise in Athletics anyway, so if you don't have any of that it might be more manageable. Even then, I think you'd see a lot of garroting going on.

I don’t think so. Given how long it takes a character to suffocate if they can hold their breath, this take on it would mean it’s only really viable against surprised opponents, or as an anti-caster tactic.

 

[Fenris-77]

I don’t think so. Given how long it takes a character to suffocate if they can hold their breath, this take on it would mean it’s only really viable against surprised opponents, or as an anti-caster tactic.

Holding your breath for a maximum amount of time involves some prep, deep breaths, etc etc. I don't really think that applies to getting strangled either by surprise or in the thick of combat. Really deep breathing, like for free diving, requires a slow inhalation, sometimes as long as 20 seconds, and for the person to stay as still as possible to conserve blood oxygen. I feel like we've moved past either of those things really being an option.

 

[Jediking]

[...] you now can can take down a high-HP creature such as a champion with 14 Constitution in just two rounds

That seems very powerful to me. Maybe not to you?

By only requiring advantage, that makes circumventing HP to attack breath almost trivially easy for a PC. Advantage is extremely easy for PCs to get, much more so than it is for monsters.

If the effect – targeting breath instead of HP – is as powerful as I think it is, then "gating" garrote use to advantage is far too little of a gate for PCs.

I agree with your thoughts, and this does reflect a lot of how I run my own games.
For a complete overanalysis read below, but TL;DR version:
Garroting is balanced on the standard three (3)-round combat encounter, and adds a really cool option for exploration challenges.
It is extremely powerful vs one single enemy (probably too much!) and more balanced against encounters with multiple enemies - but that is a common issue I have with 5e anyways, and based in what I have seen on forums something others do as well.

Deepdive:
*The champion would take three (3) rounds to knock unconsicous that way, as it is 1 + Con mod (2) = 3. - But this doesn’t affect your point at all and you are correct, so I won’t use the champion as an example.

I agree it is a powerful tactic against certain types of creatures, especially as some people mentioned higher in thread - specifically the high HP but low Str/Con. But I see this as a good strategic option that is one more tool for players to have, and it only efficient in certain encounters.

The grappled condition only prevents movement and does not gove disadvantage on attack rolls, so the grappled target will always have at least one creature to attack.

Brute type enemies typically have higher Con (to survive at least 2-4 rounds) and higher Str (to break the grapple). They usually have strong melee attacks, so this tactic isn’t super effective at ending the fight faster.

Skirmisher- type enemies use high mobility and could have ranged attacks. This is where the Garrote is most effective, and I think this is a great tactic to have available. It may be too powerful for some groups, but my group really enjoys using complicated rock-scissor-paper type strategies and this opens up another option.

Glass-cannon type creatures would not last long being choked - but if someone is within melee distance with advantage then they are already not expected to survive long


Combats are balanced to last 3 rounds (taken from how to calculate monster CR from the DMG). Most creatures have certain tactics they use reflected in their ability scores and abilities.
The Garrote is most effective against high HP/low Con creatures, which is a rare form in itself. Unless it is a high-CR creature, like the archmage. But if you are within melee distance to an archmage with advantage on the attack, the (probably higher level) party should be expected to be able to kill the mage within 2 rounds anyways.

Edit: it is great to see support on the GoFundMe!

 

[NotAYakk]

Realistically, a "garrot hold" is a "target has lost fight" move. It is akin to "stap target through eye into brain" or "decapitate" or "rip heart out".

So you have to throw realism out if you want it as an in-combat weapon that isn't an "I win" button.

 

[LordEntrails]

What about a locking garrote?

 

[Fenris-77]

Realistically, a "garrot hold" is a "target has lost fight" move. It is akin to "stap target through eye into brain" or "decapitate" or "rip heart out".

So you have to throw realism out if you want it as an in-combat weapon that isn't an "I win" button.

I think that's the precise project here, yeah. The trick is to make good enough that it's situationally useful, without it turning into How can we garrote this creature? as the opening move in every encounter. Keep it realistic 'enough' that it has something like the right feel, but enough crunch that it isn't OP.