Expert Tactician and Sneak Attack

[Datt]

Suppose you have a Rogue with the Expert Tactian Feat. You win Initiative so your opponent is caught flat footed. With the Expert Tactian Feat you get a free partial action whenever someone is denied thier Dex bonus to AC. Now my question is this, does the Rogue get to apply his/her Sneak Attack damage to this partial action? Bascially meaning that the Rogue would get 2 sneak attacks off before his/her opponent got to their initiative. If so that makes it one deadly feat for a Rogue. Especially combined with the Quicker than Eye feat.

 

[BIGLOU]

Now my question is this, does the Rogue get to apply his/her Sneak Attack damage to this partial action?

You are correct sir! This is a potentially deadly feat for rouges. It is not too bad with the monks stunning fist ability either.

 

[Darklone]

I would not allow to combine it with QttE. I am not sure and have no books here, but I think the descriptions exclude this possibility.

 

[Mulkhoran]

I would not allow to combine it with QttE. I am not sure and have no books here, but I think the descriptions exclude this possibility.

Actually, this is a perfectly valid combo, and the descriptions support it. On your turn, you bluff as a move-equivalent action against your specific target. If the target fails it's spot check, it is then denied it's dexterity bonus to AC, a condition that triggers Expert Tactician. You now have the free partial action melee attack action from Expert Tactician, and the partial action from Quicker Than The Eye. Both can be used for sneak attacks, since the target is denied his dex bonus to AC. And then you still have your regular standard action, minus your m-e.

In the original situation, this would equate to three sneak attacks. I *think* the sage even covered this, but I don't have a reference.

 

[jontherev]

First of all, Expert Tactician does not give you an extra partial action. Read the feat from Song and Silence, not Sword and Fist. It gives you a free MELEE attack...that's it. So now rogues have to take the near worthless feat Combat Reflexes as a prerequisite (still worth it though ). Yes sneak attack applies, just like it does if you somehow have 36 attacks in a full round action AND your foe is denied their dex bonus (and isn't immune, concealed, etc.). I believe the Sage clarified somewhere that with QttE, you could bluff someone, make a free attack via ET, bluff again with your leftover action, and make another free attack via ET. Note, that this completely changes how the feat works AS WRITTEN since the feat clearly states that your extra attack must come before or after your normal action, not in the middle. QttE is a cool feat, but is not even close to being overpowered when combined with ET. What's worse, getting 2 sneak attacks per round, or getting 7 (3 from bab, 1 from haste, 1 from ET, 2 from offhand)? If I took QttE, I'd use the feat for other purposes like picking up dropped weapons and drinking potions w/o being seen or provoking AoO's.

EDIT:Oh yeah, if someone could point us to the source of that Sage Advice I'd appreciate it. Or, tell me if I'm wrong on that. That interpretation opens the possibility of hasted rogues getting 2 extra attacks per round via ET alone.

 

[Mulkhoran]

If I took QttE, I'd use the feat for other purposes like picking up dropped weapons and drinking potions w/o being seen or provoking AoO's.

*treads extremely carefully*

Before I say this, let me say that that is *EXACTLY* how I see, QttE. Just like you said raht up thar.

But doesn't it suck that they wrote it in such a way that that kind of thing isn't supported under the rules? The *spirit* is clearly defined in the flavor text, but the *rule* isn't.

This is one of the reasons I get annoyed at the splatbooks. Maybe it's unreasonable to expect a higher level of clarity and rules integration from WotC than from third parties, but I do. Hell, they *wrote* the game.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

This is one of the reasons I get annoyed at the splatbooks. Maybe it's unreasonable to expect a higher level of clarity and rules integration from WotC than from third parties, but I do. Hell, they *wrote* the game.

I don't see what the feat not applying to things that you happen to think it ought to has to do with clarity or rules integration. What the feat does is perfectly clear; you just don't happen to like it.

 

[Mulkhoran]

I don't see what the feat not applying to things that you happen to think it ought to has to do with clarity or rules integration. What the feat does is perfectly clear; you just don't happen to like it.

I don't think that's perfectly clear at all; there is a clear intimation of more ability, such as preventing an AoO if you drink a potion or recover a weapon. It's right there in the flavor text, where it mentions your opponents "looking elsewhere".

But it doesn't say that opponents can't get AoOs vs. you, or that they're considered flat-footed, or they no longer threaten you, or any such thing. It only talks about mechanics *IF* you choose to attack one of the targets. THEN it says they lose their dex bonus.

It seems that they intended more out of the feat, but didn't put the supporting rules definitions to hold it up. That's what I think. Your perception may vary.

 

[Datt]

Suppose I'm a rogue with the Expert Tactician feat from Sword and Fist and the Quicker Than the Eye feat from Song and Silence. If I'm in melee with an opponent and use a move-equivalent action to Bluff my foe and get him to look away, can I do the extra attack from the Expert Tactician feat? If I do that, can I then use my remaining partial action to run away? What happens if I use my partial action to use Bluff again? Can I then make a second free attack?

An opponent who fails to detect your Bluff when you use Quicker Than the Eye does not see the partial action you take after the Bluff, so your opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus against your melee attacks. If you also have the Expert Tactician feat, you can make an immediate free attack against a foe who failed his Spot check against your Bluff. Once you do so, that opponent is observing you again, and that opponent will observe you if you try to run away after the free attack. Because the attack you make by virtue of your Expert Tactician feat is a free action, you could attempt to use Quicker Than the Eye again, but your opponent should get a bonus on the Spot check. The second Bluff check also is a move-equivalent action, so you would be done acting for the round. If the second Bluff check succeeded, however, your opponent would once again not see you, and you could make another free attack by virtue of your Expert Tactician feat.

Taken directly from the SoS FAQ. I would say that since he does not see the partial action you take, then there is no way he could have an AoO against you.


edited for spacing purposes.

 

[Datt]

I found the description for the Quicker Than the Eye
feat confusing. Do you get an actual extra partial action
granted to you if any foe (even 1 out of 20 goblins) fails
the Spot check? Or is this feat meant to just allow you to
make one attack after bluffing in the same round?

Quicker Than the Eye doesn’t give you any extra actions.
Creatures that fail their Spot checks just don’t see what
You’re doing for the rest of the round.
Once you make your Bluff check (as a move-equivalent
action) you can do just about anything with the remainder of
your round. Because you have already made a move-
equivalent action, you have only a partial action left. You
could use that partial action to attack, move, use a skill, cast a
spell, or any one of a number of other things (see Partial
Actions in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook).
Note that what you can do after the Bluff check does not
depend at all on the outcome of your opponents™ Spot checks,
but any opponent who makes a successful Spot check
observes what you do with your partial action.

This is in the SoS FAQ about the QttE feat.