Expert Tactician while invisible facing 4 flatfooted foes in reach--how many attacks?

Yeah. The example is all screwed up - it's in no way correct. I've also seen a seperate response from Skip that described how to use ET with Quicker than the Eye (now Improved Feint) in a way which was just... perplexing.

Expert Tactician just provides you with an extra melee attack every single round which can only be used just before or just after you take your normal actions on your initiative - and it can only target an opponent that is denied dexterity to AC (which can include unconcious or inanimate targets).

It's nowhere near as complicated as many of these "official" answers are making it out.

Is it just before or after your regular action?
Is the target within your threatened area?
Is the target denied dexterity?

If the answer to all of those questions is "yes" - you may use your one melee attack from expert tactician on them. It's that simple.

-Frank
 

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FrankTrollman said:
Is it just before or after your regular action?
Is the target within your threatened area?
Is the target denied dexterity?

If the answer to all of those questions is "yes" - you may use your one melee attack from expert tactician on them. It's that simple.

I confess, I read it slightly differently.

I've always seen it that if the enemy is denied his Dexterity bonus during your action, then you receive the bonus attack, which can only be made after your action... even if the enemy is no longer denied his Dex bonus after your action.

The standard example I'd use of that is a Feint. If I successfully feint, then the next time I make a melee attack against that opponent, he will be denied his Dex bonus. If I don't make a melee attack, then he is not denied his Dex bonus, and Expert Tactician is irrelevant.

If I do attack, then he is denied his Dex bonus against the "next" attack. In the case of a Full Attack, that means he's denied his Dex against the first attack, but not against the rest. But while I'm making that first attack, he is an enemy who is denied his Dex bonus against me, and Expert Tactician triggers. I obviously can't make an extra attack before my action, which has already started, but I can make it after.

By the time I've finished my Full Attack, he has his Dex bonus back... but I still have a bonus attack I can use against him.

That's how I've read it since Song and Silence came out... though I can certainly see your reading as valid.

-Hyp.
 

I really read it that he has to be denied dex bonus right now, and not some indefinate time in the past.

So in order to get an extra attack out of Feint you have to Feint at the end of your action so that the Expert Tactician Attack can take advantage of the Feint.

So with Improved Feint and ET:

Standard Action: Attack
MEA: Feint
Bonus Attack: Sneak Attack

works, but:

MEA: Feint
Standard Action: Sneak Attack
Bonus Attack: Invalid Target

doesn't work so well.

It doesn't "trigger", nor can it somehow "store" the attack until it becomes available - it needs a valid target when it comes around. Talking about triggering it gets us into all kinds of stupid problems and weird Sage answers and stuff - I don't hold with it at all.

-Frank
 

FrankTrollman said:
So with Improved Feint and ET:

Standard Action: Attack
MEA: Feint
Bonus Attack: Sneak Attack

I don't see that as a valid use of Expert Tactician, though.

After you feint, he's not denied Dex bonus; he's only denied his Dex bonus the next time you make a melee attack. If you don't attack, he's not denied.

And so you don't have the option of using Expert Tactician, because until you make the attack, he's not denied Dex bonus, and until he's denied Dex bonus, you can't attack...

-Hyp.
 

Of course you do. You get a melee attack against anyone who is denied their dexterity bonus against that attack. Not people who were denied their dexterity bonus against some other attack made by you or someone else at any point in the past - just that attack.

So Feint is perfectly valid to set up an ET attack. You get the attack which is valid against people who are denied their dex bonus against it. So it is valid to get an attack while you are invisible - because the victim is denied dexterity against that attack (even though they are not, in general, denied dexterity just because there is someone somewhere that they cannot see).

Everything sees things through its own perspective. The perspective of Expert Tactician is the attack you are getting from Expert Tactician.

-Frank
 

FrankTrollman said:
Of course you do. You get a melee attack against anyone who is denied their dexterity bonus against that attack. Not people who were denied their dexterity bonus against some other attack made by you or someone else at any point in the past - just that attack.

So Feint is perfectly valid to set up an ET attack. You get the attack which is valid against people who are denied their dex bonus against it.

so youre saying that just feinting by itself will trigger the free attack from Expert Tactician, even though the target of the feint has not been denied his Dex bonus?

taking the example you gave that you said works:

So with Improved Feint and ET:

Standard Action: Attack
MEA: Feint


wait, check to see if opponent is denied Dex bonus. have you attacked them?

Bonus Attack: Sneak Attack


i thought i understood Expert Tactician and Feinting before, but now im really confused.
 

FrankTrollman said:
Of course you do. You get a melee attack against anyone who is denied their dexterity bonus against that attack.
Exactly where does it specifiy this?


Not people who were denied their dexterity bonus against some other attack made by you or someone else at any point in the past - just that attack.
Again, where does it specify this? My copy of Song and Silence doesn't make any mention at all about it. It only requires that they lose their Dex bonus to AC against you, and then grants you an extra attack.

Your reading would seem to give them the extra attack before they have lost their Dex bonus to AC. It's like using a prestige class to fulfill the requirements of that same prestige class: You can't do it. You have to meet the requirements, then you get the benefit.
 
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Trust the sage/faqs at your own risk.

They are not official errata, but they are the next best thing. Unfortunately, that advice often blatantly disregards the rules. The advice often results in incredibly abusive situations. If you look at 3.5, the splat books, etc ... you'll se a trend for them to ignore the sage advice/faqs when revising materials. Concepts that Skip Williams has 'clarified' in his advice are often not incorporated into new versions of the spells or abilities.

If you want a balanced campaign, the best bet is to search on the various boards when an issue arises. Find some threads discussing the issue. Then, follow through the arguments and figure out for yourself which argument you agree with the most. It may not have the full WotC support, but all the people on the message boards working together are more likely to come up with a good solution than the sage.
 

this is how we run it in our campaign, with the rogue character who has improved feint and expert tactician:

move-equivalent action - feint against opponent, if the opponent fails, than you get your extra attack from expert tactician
standard action - regular attack
 

against one foe who is within melee reach and denied a Dexterity bonus against your attacks for any reason.

It's that simple.

Do you threaten them? (within melee reach)
If you attacked them right now, would they be allowed a Dexterity bonus to AC?

It doesn't say "who was very recently denied a Dexterity bonus" and it doesn't say "who you have attacked in the last turn without allowing them a Dexterity bonus." It says who "is denied a Dexterity bonus against your attacks for any reason."

So if you successfully feint - you can stab someone at the end of your turn with the ET attack. If you successfully feint and then stab someone with a normal attack your feint is over and it is too late to use that for an ET attack.

This is really simple guys. It's D&D - absolutely everything is present tense.

And yes, it is essentially someone who will be denied Dexterity against your attack because the modifiers don't technically get added up until the attack is declared.

-Frank
 

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