Expertise and Power Attack at the same time?

[Leopold]

Why? using those feats don't change the actual BAB of your character.

yes they do for that time being they do. You ALLOCATE your BAB to either hitting, using expertise, or power attack. Whatever is left is what you have to hit.

I would rule that you can only use one of them for the following reason:

You are using the feat to cause more damage or protect yourself. That requires concentration and focus, doing 2 things at once is extremely difficult.

Try smashing something and trying to prevent some from poking you with a poker. sorry your a busy busy boy and not able to concentrate. Pick one, use it, do it, and don't do 3 things at once..

 

[Caliban]

yes they do for that time being they do. You ALLOCATE your BAB to either hitting, using expertise, or power attack. Whatever is left is what you have to hit.

Read the feats in question again. They never state that you "allocate" your BAB.

They state that you can choose to take a penalty on your attacks for the rest of the round, in return for the stated benefit (AC or Damage). The penalty from each feat just cannot be be greater than your BAB (or -5 for expertise).

Nothing stops a 5th level fighter with both Power Attack and Expertise from taking a -5 penalty from each feat at the same time, for a -10 on his attack roll.

 

[Bhaal]

Why? using those feats don't change the actual BAB of your character.

While I agree that a player could do both, at least technically (It seems a little weird to visualize), they will be very vulnerable to disarm attempts until it's their turn again.

Both in the Power Attack and Expertise description it says the penalties/bonuses to attack, damage and AC remain in effect until your next action. And disarm is opposed attack rolls, so you'd still have that -10 to attack if a foe tries to disarm you after your attack.

Now it says action, not "the next action at least a round later". So I suppose it can be interpreted such that if you were hasted you could do a full attack with those feats and then something else in your extra partial that dispels those feats (like a normal attack). However I think they meant the effect lasts for at least a round, and then on your next action (whether you get one that round or later) the penalties/bonuses go away. At least, that's how I'd rule it in my campaign.

 

[Negative Zero]

why is it that people have such a problem with the difference between difficult and impossible?

Try smashing something and trying to prevent some from poking you with a poker. sorry your a busy busy boy and not able to concentrate. Pick one, use it, do it, and don't do 3 things at once..

the inherrant difficulty of doing both is already figured in, with the penalty to attack. look, if you're unable to multitask, then that's your limitation. don't assume that no one else is able to; particularly someone who is used to swinging weapons their entire life.

also, we're talking about a game mechanic here, not "real life." in addition, doing something like that in-game comes with it's own built in drawbacks, i.e. a penalty to attack, so, what's the problem here? it's not like a player could take only a -5 penalty and get a +5 to his AC AND to his damage roll. get a grip already it's a GAME! you do remember that wacky concept of having "fun" ... right?

~NegZ

<edit>
all of that said, i do agree that the penalty should last until your next initiative count comes up. just coz haste gives you an extra partial action, doens't meant that the rounds lasts any longer.

 

[Greybar]

In any case, it's a pretty funny image, a fighter making wild overhand blows while squirming and jumping out of the way of anything that comes at him. I imagine him with his eyes screwed just and the tip of his tongue sticking out of the corner of his mouth as he flails away around him.

Heck, I think *I've* fought this way in "the Realms" (a local light-weapons combat-heavy LARP)

Seriously, the PowerAttack/Expertise describes one of the better fighters in that group. He's all about diving attacks that can land good blows and move him past defenses...

I'd say let them do it all out: a 5 BAB, with +5 damage, +5 AC, and -10 to hit. I recommend that if they end up with a less than zero result, you should take it as an opportunity for some really good combat-description.

"You dive quickly into the opening left by the minotaur's great-axe, throwing all of your weight into a great thrust into his chest. He recoils quickly though, and without the impact of your blade to help you keep your balance, you fall face down in front of him.

His initiative is up next, and he raises his greataxe high as he prepared to bring it down hard on your prone body. Yep, he'll be using his Power Attack. Let's see if you can roll out of the way of the plummeting blade... [rolls the dice]"

John

 

[MThibault]

I try not to penalize players for choices that are already balanced by the rules. I mean, it sounds like you've basically just given bonuses to the opponent that negates Expertise. If I were a player I would probably never use Expertise again at that table, the bonus to hit is a serious enough penalty. Without having ad hoc penalties thrown in for the DM's amusement.

BTW, I also try to consistently rules that "until your next action" is synonymous with "next round".

 

[Kershek]

We have a house feat we can take called "Offensive Strike". It works like Power Attack, except that it reduces your dex by up to 10 to give you have that as a bonus to your to-hit. Therefore, if I decide to reduce my dex by 6 until the next round, I would get a +3 to my attacks. The overall effect is to reduce your AC and add that amount to your to-hit (though reducing your dex has other implications [like no finessing], which is the reason we worded it that way).

Now, we just realized that if you combine Power Attack with Offensive strike, the end result would be to reduce your AC to get more damage. This is what sparked my original question. Do you think this particular combination is too powerful to be allowed to use together?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The duo bonuses are perfectly well balanced by the doubled penalties. Besides having trouble hitting, you open yourself up to disarms, sunders, grapples, as well as reducing the usefulness of your threat zone to exploit AoOs.

Clever players will exploit True Strike or Power Critical. I don't see any good reason to discourage such resourcefulness.

 

[MThibault]

I agree. Giving up a round of attacks to drink a potion of True Strike is never a net gain in average damage, and is near-foolish at high levels unless there are mitigating circumstances. If a party caster is casting True Strike on the fighter it is a pretty good use of a 1st level spell (+1 damage per fighter level) but magic missile is about as effective.

Cheers.

 

[Mahali]

If a party caster is casting True Strike on the fighter it is a pretty good use of a 1st level spell (+1 damage per fighter level) but magic missile is about as effective.

Cheers.

True Strike
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, F
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Personal

Well, that nixes that idea doesn't it.