expertise and second implement

[evilbob]

I plan on giving my wizard Second Implement at paragon level, and I would like to avoid having to pay a double feat tax to fix the math in the game with Implement Expertise (since I'll already be paying for two weapons just to enjoy the feat and its abilities). Assuming that it works the way we all think it works at this point (one implement type only per feat), and assuming that it is not houseruled, I wanted to make sure the following was valid, so that I could take Implement Expertise once (for staffs) and not twice (for orbs).

You have to be wielding an orb to gain the ability to use the implement class feature, but nothing specifies that you have to actually use the orb to cast the power that the class feature effects, correct? So I could use a staff to cast Sleep (or whatever), but then as a free action so long as I am also wielding the orb, I can then use the orb to give a penalty to saves for the creature effected by Sleep, correct? (I think this makes sense and isn't even bending the rules, but I wanted to see what others thought.)

Additionally, there is still nothing that requires an item to be wielded (or frankly, worn, or anything other than on your person) when it comes to daily item powers, correct? So I could also use a static orb power - like from the Orb of Ultimate Imposition or the Orb of Karmic Resonance, both of which do not include "using this orb" or "with this orb" as part of their description, as so many other orbs do - as a free action even if the power in question was not used through that orb, right? (In fact, both of them would likely trigger long after the power was cast.)

In other words, I could purchase the lowest level Orb of Karmic Resonance (level 13), wield it, and gain the benefit of the orb implement mastery feature and this item's daily power without actually having to cast through the thing, thus avoiding requiring another Implement Expertise feat (tax). Thoughts?

 

[radja]

thoughts? only 1 really.. you're absolutely right.

 

[abyssaldeath]

You've got it Evilbob. Nailed right on the head.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Sounds strictly speaking true, but IMHO you are relying to some extent on several rules interpretations which are quite likely to be errated away as they feel quite like they are instances where stuff written in PHB wasn't worded carefully enough to take into consideration things added in newer material.

So you may quite suddenly find that your technically legal build is no longer so.

Personally I'd say that the intent of the rules was that you would NOT be able to combine benefits of multiple implements at the same time. That is entirely an opinion of course, but it seems like a logical interpretation of RAI. I'm not sure either why anyone has a problem with Implement Expertise, it is just like any of the other similar weapon type feats, if you want to have expertise in multiple implements, then you need to take multiple feats.

Same goes for using an item which is not equipped in an appropriate slot. It is just baggage. I don't think it was ever intended that you could gain an advantage from having a piece of equipment in your backpack. Wonderous Items are a POSSIBLE exception, but they pretty much all specify specific conditions under which they function, or in essence are hand slot items. It does get a bit ambiguous though and there could be some where it may be reasonable to be a bit more lax. For example one might rule that the summoning power of a Figurine of Wondrous Power can be triggered without actually needing to hold it in hand.

 

[evilbob]

That's ok. I'm happy to agree to disagree on intent, especially since that seems exactly what that feat is for. And frankly if they haven't errata'd powers on an item by now, I think it unlikely that they will. And this is easily the least abusive I've seen, especially since I'm actually wielding the weapon and using the power (as opposed to just having it in my pocket, which is technically also completely viable). Honestly, I'm not about trying to get around rules, but I will certainly get particular when I see something I don't like: such as the Expertise feat tax.

 

[Eldorian]

That's ok. I'm happy to agree to disagree on intent, especially since that seems exactly what that feat is for. And frankly if they haven't errata'd powers on an item by now, I think it unlikely that they will. And this is easily the least abusive I've seen, especially since I'm actually wielding the weapon and using the power (as opposed to just having it in my pocket, which is technically also completely viable). Honestly, I'm not about trying to get around rules, but I will certainly get particular when I see something I don't like: such as the Expertise feat tax.

I think it's safe to assume you must be wearing or wielding a magic item to use it's powers, unless it's a wondrous item that states otherwise. If you wish to argue this, then I must argue that nowhere does it state you must wear armor to get it's enhancement bonus. Also, the book does not define death. You have to be reasonable.

Some people think like robots. (not saying you are, since you are planning on wielding the orb to use its powers).

 

[Eldorian]

Just did some reading as to the original question:

13. Rogue weapon talent requires you to “wield” a particular weapon. What does this mean?

Wielding means you must be using that weapon in the attack. Merely holding it while you attack with another weapon isn’t enough to qualify for any bonuses that result.

Wielding means used in the attack.

You must wield an orb to use this ability.

So, you must use the orb in the attack in order to use the implement mastery feature. So you cannot cast a spell with your staff's enhancement bonuses, and use your Orb of Imposition ability to enhance the spell.

However,

3. If you wield a light shield, you can also hold an item as well, although you can’t attack with it. What if that item is an implement? Can you apply its implement bonus to your powers?

No. Using an implement to gain its bonuses is considered attacking with that implement. If you wield a light shield and hold an implement in the same hand, you would not get the implement enhancement bonus to your powers, but you would still benefit from any property that the implement has.

you can still benefit from the property of the orb even if you're not wielding it in the attack. Note this does not state you can use a power from the orb when not wielding it. However, your particular power example is not a power that is used as part of an attack, and is a reaction to an enemy's saving throw. The Orb of Karmic Resonance doesn't even specify that the save needs to be from an effect that you caused. As long as you are able to wield the implement when you use this power, I'd say you're fine there.

 

[Mort_Q]

nevermind

 

[evilbob]

Wielding means used in the attack.

So, you must use the orb in the attack in order to use the implement mastery feature. So you cannot cast a spell with your staff's enhancement bonuses, and use your Orb of Imposition ability to enhance the spell.

This is a good point. However, it's a very strange situation, since a rogue can only use their weapon talent while making an attack, but the orb implement feature can be used as a free action at any time during the encounter.

I don't know if the rogue weapon "wield" definition can be used here, since technically you don't have to use the free action immediately. In fact, you could wait 5 turns after casting a power and then choose to use the orb - or at least, that's how it must work, or else the 2nd (useless) orb power makes no sense, since you could only usefully use that power on the turn -after- you've used an at-will power.

It seems like the only requirement to using the orb ability is to "wield" it, but at the same time you do not have to use the orb ability during the attack.

 

[evilbob]

Also:

Using an implement to gain its bonuses is considered attacking with that implement. If you wield a light shield and hold an implement in the same hand, you would not get the implement enhancement bonus to your powers, but you would still benefit from any property that the implement has.

To gain the benefit of a weapon’s property, you must be wielding the weapon.

/sigh