Fake damage from illusions?

[an_idol_mind]

I just noticed while looking through the illusion spells that the old trick of using phantasmal force (now the various image spells) to mimic a fireball or other damage-dealing spell no longer works under the current rules. Since image spells are figments, the subject is clued in as to the lack of damage and thus disbelieves automatically. Does anyone know why this was changed? It seems a pretty drastice departure from the way illusions (and thus illusionists) work. I liked doing things like blasting the PCs with a spell that seemingly killed them, only to have them awake a few hours later realizing that it was only an illusion.

 

[Voadam]

I just noticed while looking through the illusion spells that the old trick of using phantasmal force (now the various image spells) to mimic a fireball or other damage-dealing spell no longer works under the current rules. Since image spells are figments, the subject is clued in as to the lack of damage and thus disbelieves automatically. Does anyone know why this was changed? It seems a pretty drastice departure from the way illusions (and thus illusionists) work. I liked doing things like blasting the PCs with a spell that seemingly killed them, only to have them awake a few hours later realizing that it was only an illusion.

Illusion image spells just fool senses and do not physically affect those who interact with them. You need color spray to knock them unconscious, shadow evocation to make a fake fireball that will damage them if they do not see through the illusion, or phantasmal killer to scare them to death. Images are just holograms now. I think it makes them much easier to consistently adjudicate them.

An illusion image of a floor over a pit opening is still pretty effective.

 

[Slife]

Holograms that eventually fool more senses.

You still use illusions to make a wall of fire that feels hot (even though it doesn't deal damage).

You can mimic area attack spells too - you just have to miss.

 

[Zephrin the Lost]

Illusion image spells just fool senses and do not physically affect those who interact with them. You need color spray to knock them unconscious, shadow evocation to make a fake fireball that will damage them if they do not see through the illusion, or phantasmal killer to scare them to death. Images are just holograms now. I think it makes them much easier to consistently adjudicate them.

An illusion image of a floor over a pit opening is still pretty effective.

I don't see how this makes it easier to adjudicate them. When does the viewer get to make his will save? How many does he get? If my illusionist does an illusion of a tree, does the target get a will save as soon as he sees the tree, or does he have to study it, try to touch it, etc? If he misses the first save, does he get one every round that the tree is in view? What if he shoots an arrow at it? Does the arrow automatically prove the illusion false if it hits, even if he failed his will save that same round?

Old school illusions, if you failed your save, you believed you were in combat and all that went with it -- damage, parries. etc. As holograms, there are dozens of issues as to when a viewer has 'interacted' with them enough to warrant a save. Now it seems illusions are good for little else than covering the convenient pit that the enemy hopefully doesn't know about.

--Z

 

[Voadam]

Holograms that eventually fool more senses.

You still use illusions to make a wall of fire that feels hot (even though it doesn't deal damage).

You can mimic area attack spells too - you just have to miss.

1e spells did the heat thing too. I think its the 3rd level one from UA.

 

[WarlockLord]

At least you can use them to hide behind...

but yeah, I have often wondered this myself.

 

[Voadam]

I don't see how this makes it easier to adjudicate them. When does the viewer get to make his will save? How many does he get? If my illusionist does an illusion of a tree, does the target get a will save as soon as he sees the tree, or does he have to study it, try to touch it, etc? If he misses the first save, does he get one every round that the tree is in view? What if he shoots an arrow at it? Does the arrow automatically prove the illusion false if it hits, even if he failed his will save that same round?

Old school illusions, if you failed your save, you believed you were in combat and all that went with it -- damage, parries. etc. As holograms, there are dozens of issues as to when a viewer has 'interacted' with them enough to warrant a save. Now it seems illusions are good for little else than covering the convenient pit that the enemy hopefully doesn't know about.

--Z

In 1e you had to make judgments about what was actually happening when they failed their save as well as when they fail their save and believe the illusion.

In 3e there is a visual thing with no mechanical effect on creatures besides the image which can fake creatures out or provide concealment. You do have to judge when they interact with the illusion. If they make their save then it turns translucent. If they don't then it stays but things go through it, they don't make false compensations on their swings or whatnot to fake themselves into belief.

Prior editions seemed to have a different explanation for how illusions worked in every source to discusss them.

 

[interwyrm]

Wait... can you use mirage arcana to make a river of lava that does damage... and if not, how would you effectively use it?

 

[Lord Zardoz]

If you want to have Illusions to be capable of affecting more than just perceptions, just run the damage as you normally would if the apparent effect were real, and have the damage act as subdual damage. This allows you to use illusory monsters manifested by the various *Image spells, though those interacting with it would get to make Will saves every time they interact with it.

END COMMUNICATION