Falcon and winter solider

[tomBitonti]

Not Patriot. That is the name used in the comic books by Isaiah's grandson, after he gets a blood transfusion from his grandfather and becomes superpowered, and then joins the Young Avengers. And the Young Avengers is something a lot of people are guessing is being set up for either Disney+ or as a series of movies. Several of the members have been introduced or teased in future shows so far.

As for Walker, we know in the real world that people can black out from fear or anger/rage or from drinking to much, and do things they have no idea they are doing. Maybe he was in a blackout rage and won't get the full punishment the world will think he deserves. It can be the difference between 1st degree murder and 3rd degree manslaughter. This show was filmed many months ago, but we have that high profile murder trial going on right now, with similarities. Sort of eerie that we are getting the show and the trial at the same time.

In regards to the current trial, that seems to be about casual brutalilty; an indifference to suffering and harm.

Walker’s rage seems to be an entirely different creature.

If I were deploying assets I would give Walker a hard pass unless the situation was truly desperate. Uncontrollable soldiers are not forces a commander wants, unless they actually want uncontrolled butchery.

TomB

 

[Dire Bare]

Is he? I mean, I'm not saying he's not, and that organization isn't that, but if he is, and it is, the show has not made that clear to me.

Yeah Bond's license to kill. That's equally silly. If MI6 sent an agent to America with a 'license to kill' ... I seem to remember cops chasing Bond a lot when he went to America.



(But of course, if we all agree it's just silly, we're good. It's just that people seem to be arguing it's realistic).

It's in that nebulous land between realistic and silly genre trope. James Bond does not represent the reality of international spying, certainly. Superheroes aren't real either.

But both types of stories take place in the real world, and comment on real issues and concerns of the day (when they were made), even if at times they get a little silly.

What Walker did with that shield MIGHT not work out all that well for him in the real world today . . . . but the real world of tomorrow? I don't think it's much of a stretch, or all that silly.

 

[Dire Bare]

Not Patriot. That is the name used in the comic books by Isaiah's grandson, after he gets a blood transfusion from his grandfather and becomes superpowered, and then joins the Young Avengers. And the Young Avengers is something a lot of people are guessing is being set up for either Disney+ or as a series of movies. Several of the members have been introduced or teased in future shows so far.

As for Walker, we know in the real world that people can black out from fear or anger/rage or from drinking to much, and do things they have no idea they are doing. Maybe he was in a blackout rage and won't get the full punishment the world will think he deserves. It can be the difference between 1st degree murder and 3rd degree manslaughter. This show was filmed many months ago, but we have that high profile murder trial going on right now, with similarities. Sort of eerie that we are getting the show and the trial at the same time.

I was thinking Super-Patriot, John Walker's original alias in the comics. I do hope we see Elijah Bradley's Patriot at some point not too far away!

EDIT: I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, but . . . there's a LOT of Captain America alternates in Marvel history! Bring them all together into a Captain America super-squad, the Captains America!

 

[Stalker0]

Mind control is relatively subtle and it wasn’t done maliciously. It’s unlikely anyone is going to consider it anywhere near as severe as executing a guy in public.

The mind control was so strong Rambaeu described it as "torture" (which her superior called her on before he did his heel turn). It was so strong the people noted at the end that they were starting to forget their original memories.

It wasn't malicious, but Wanda also didn't do a finger to help the people either. She literally took them out of it and then peaced out, no public apology, no attempt to help them rebuild their lives, just....gone.

Its not murder, but its a far cry from a guilt less crime.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

No, it isn't "clearly" wrong.

Zemo had his family killed by the actions of superheroes. Superheroes created a monster, and then countless people were hurt before they could stop it. That is something a rational person can look at and say, "Yeah, superheroes are a bad idea."

No, that wouldn’t be rational. A scientist created a monster that required the Avengers as a whole to defeat. If Tony wasn’t an Avenger, he still would have all the tools needed to make Ultron, and the same trauma potentially leading him to think he needs to do so.
And even if we ignore that, and we rationally cannot, it certainly wouldn’t outweigh all the threats that are in no way created by superheroes that require superheroes to address

A rational person can also say that superheroes are a good idea, as they were required to save half the people in the universe... but that point is weakened by how poorly the world is managing their return, such that the return is not an unalloyed good.

The point isn’t weakened at all by how governments are failing their people after the fact. They are two wholly separate things.


More on Zemo, and the idea that the Avengers killed his family.
If I drive a car normally, at the speed limit, in normal conditions, it having undergone normal upkeep, and a defective axle or other part causes the front right wheel to fly off and hit someone, killing them, it is absurd to claim that I am responsible for that death. Tony and Bruce built an AI to run a defensive system to help defend against a second alien invasion. Had it not gone pretty damn randomly haywire, it would have helped immensely with Thanos. There was no reasonable expectation for them to know that an AI based on Jarvis would come out a psychotic murder-bot.

 

[Older Beholder]

The show continues to exceed my expectations. Wyatt Russel is doing an amazing job as John Walker. I’m finding him a far more interesting Captain America than Steve Rogers. I hope he sticks around for future shows/movies.

This series has also finally made me understand why Bucky is such a popular character, which I never really got from watching the movies.
Also I think it’s doing a good job of showing that Sam is the right person to hold the shield.

 

[Older Beholder]

(then again, Marvel doesn’t think Wanda is a supervillain, so what do I know?)

I‘m pretty sure I’ve heard she’s going to be the villain in Dr Strange Multiverse of Madness.

 

[tomBitonti]

I feel like the theme of the show is that the serum breaks people.

I prefer the idea that the serum amplifies what is already there. Walker was already fractured. The break was there just not expressed. The serum brought the break to the surface and amplified it. I imagine Walker was broken by His actions in his prior service. That he had counseling by the same doctor who is treating Bucky is to me strong evidence of an existing break.
Thanks!
TomB

 

[ShinHakkaider]

If I drive a car normally, at the speed limit, in normal conditions, it having undergone normal upkeep, and a defective axle or other part causes the front right wheel to fly off and hit someone, killing them, it is absurd to claim that I am responsible for that death. Tony and Bruce built an AI to run a defensive system to help defend against a second alien invasion. Had it not gone pretty damn randomly haywire, it would have helped immensely with Thanos. There was no reasonable expectation for them to know that an AI based on Jarvis would come out a psychotic murder-bot.

Youre Right.

If you're the owner of the car, no one would reasonably hold you responsible.

But if you're the manufacturer? YES, You would absolutely be held responsible.

And Tony, SPECIFICALLY knew that he was taking a big risk in incorporating what he found in at Strucker's base into his Iron Legion Protocol to create Ultron.

Banner: So youre going for artificial intelligence and you dont want to tell the team?

Stark: Right. That's Right. You know why? Because we dont have time for a city hall debate.
I dont want to hear the "man was not meant to meddle" medley.

Tony was doing what he was doing for the right reason but he knew it was risky and problematic which is why he didnt want to tell everyone else.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I prefer the idea that the serum amplifies what is already there. Walker was already fractured. The break was there just not expressed. The serum brought the break to the surface and amplified it. I imagine Walker was broken by His actions in his prior service. That he had counseling by the same doctor who is treating Bucky is to me strong evidence of an existing break.
Thanks!
TomB

Not only that but the conversation he has with Lamar after the Dora Milaje fight.
It's pretty strongly stated that some of the things they did in Afghanistan when they served together left a mark on their souls, Walker in particular.

Lamar: You already have three Medals of Honor. You consistently make the right decisions in the heat of battle.

Walker: Yep. Three badges of excellence to make sure I never forget the worst day of my life.

Walker: We both know that the things that we had to do in Afghanistan to be awarded those medals felt a long way from being right. Being Cap is the first time I've had the chance to do something that actually FEELS right.

Upon a third rewatch of the episode i just focused on Walker and his interactions with everyone else.
I still don't agree with how he conducts himself but I understand WHY he is the way he is and I don't think that he's necessarily a bad person. Just a deeply flawed one. You get the sense that whatever he and Lamar went through was BAD and changed him.

Also, Lamar, his battle buddy, was the only person who knew him and trusted enough to keep him centered. Lamar was probably his best friend and his moral compass. And that was taken away from him.

The Walker we see post-murder is going to be an interesting one indeed.