Falcon and winter solider

[Umbran]

what is with the rant about excuses? Zemo believes the world is better off without superheroes, but the MCU just kinda...started having people say that without at all showing any really good reason for a rational person to believe it. It’s understandable that Zemo believes it, but he’s clearly wrong.

No, it isn't "clearly" wrong.

Zemo had his family killed by the actions of superheroes. Superheroes created a monster, and then countless people were hurt before they could stop it. That is something a rational person can look at and say, "Yeah, superheroes are a bad idea."

A rational person can also say that superheroes are a good idea, as they were required to save half the people in the universe... but that point is weakened by how poorly the world is managing their return, such that the return is not an unalloyed good.

 

[Sacrosanct]

. . . Are you serious? I mean, this has got to be a joke, right?

Grief does not excuse murder. Nothing excuses murder. Nothing. It doesn't matter if his best friend died. Steve thought Bucky died in the First Avenger, but he didn't go on a murder spree.

So, um, no. We're not going to cut Walker any slack because his friend died. That doesn't make up for his crime. (Why do people keep playing the Devil's Advocate for Walker? It's obvious he's a bad guy. You're not supposed to like him or want to defend him. He's a jerkass, supremacist, control freak, and not meant to be redeemable.)

As someone who spent all six years of my service overseas, with some of that in a combat zone and having lost 3 of my friends along the way, yeah, this is clear cut murder. And the antithesis of everything the original Cap stood for as Captain America. But even aside from that, legally it's murder. Assuming the US is not at war with that country, it's not even an enemy combatant, so that raises a whole bunch of issues. And it was on camera and broadcasted to the world, so no cover ups. As I mentioned up thread, the rules of engagement for the military are actually quite strict. Even if this person was considered a terrorist, you cannot kill a prisoner, which is what he was the minute he surrendered. That's not even addressing the issue if Capt even had authority to arrest him in the first place in that country.

So yes, in a TV show that clearly loves their moral grey areas, you can almost feel sorry for Walker because he meant well, and was a war hero, and most likely had a ton of PTSD stuff going on, but that only means they shouldn't have pumped serum into a PTSD vet (what did they think was going to happen with how it amplifies personality traits?). But it doesn't excuse how this was outright murder from a legal standpoint. I'm assuming Cap doesn't have diplomatic immunity based on Civil War plot lines.

 

[Umbran]

This happens in Latvia, a real world sovereign country and member state of the European Union. There are no rules of engagement that would make Walker's actions anything other than murder.

While that happened in Latvian territory, the man who was killed was not Latvian. The Flag Smashers are certainly classified as a terrorist organization, and their membership as whatever terrorist and/or enemy combatant rules they have by the EU, which muddies the waters.

Regardless, Walker brutally killed a man in front of a crowd of cameras. The rules of engagement are secondary to public opinion concerning the poster boy.

 

[Morrus]

I mean, clearly the show thinks it’s wrong. That’s what the audience of phone cameras is for. I don’t know the character from Adam, but he’s very clearly telegraphed narratively as going bad due to the serum. There’s no grey wiggle room there. Unless there’s some weird twist coming, that’s the story they’re telling here.

(then again, Marvel doesn’t think Wanda is a supervillain, so what do I know?)

 

[Stalker0]

(then again, Marvel doesn’t think Wanda is a supervillain, so what do I know?)

hehe true that.

Walker (before the murder): This guy seems like a dick and I don't like him.

Wanda (we learn she has been mind controlling an entire town against their will): Wanda's had it tough lately, lets cut her some slack.

 

[billd91]

. . . Are you serious? I mean, this has got to be a joke, right?

Grief does not excuse murder. Nothing excuses murder. Nothing. It doesn't matter if his best friend died. Steve thought Bucky died in the First Avenger, but he didn't go on a murder spree.

So, um, no. We're not going to cut Walker any slack because his friend died. That doesn't make up for his crime. (Why do people keep playing the Devil's Advocate for Walker? It's obvious he's a bad guy. You're not supposed to like him or want to defend him. He's a jerkass, supremacist, control freak, and not meant to be redeemable.)

It is, however, a reasonably frequent and predictable act. In their grief and anger, American GIs most certainly did gun down captured SS soldiers during the Battle of the Bulge in retaliation for the SS doing the same to prisoners they captured. American GIs did gun down captured concentration camp guards when they saw the situation and condition of the prisoners. And that's orders of magnitude less than what the Soviets did. These sorts of things do happen no matter what kind of command and control gets exerted over combat, and most of the time it's swept under the rug or compared with the perspective of the situation as a whole. So most of the GIs or Soviets who performed those murders were never held culpable.
Walker's in a somewhat different situation as far as the politics and the optics. What he did was very public and there will obviously be fallout. It is, however, understandable within the context of centuries of human behavior and saying it isn't is really living in denial. So yeah, I have some sympathy for Walker. The situation he's in is extremely complicated and he's in over his head with respect to technology, combat ability, and overall expectations as a national symbol and not all of that is his fault. Yet, somehow, he's got to try to navigate his way though it and bring a bunch of super soldiers to justice. Big surprise he's going to screw up.

 

[billd91]

hehe true that.

Walker (before the murder): This guy seems like a dick and I don't like him.

Wanda (we learn she has been mind controlling an entire town against their will): Wanda's had it tough lately, lets cut her some slack.

Mind control is relatively subtle and it wasn’t done maliciously. It’s unlikely anyone is going to consider it anywhere near as severe as executing a guy in public. On the other hand, the latter goes on all the time in numerous countries - particularly the police and military depending on their targets (racial/ethnic minorities, insurgent groups, etc) - with little oversight. So

 

[Morrus]

It’s unlikely anyone is going to consider it anywhere near as severe as executing a guy in public.

Well, clearly. In that universe. That's established. I have no emotional empathy with that, but that is indeed what the Marvel universe says: mass mental violation and kidnapping are trivial things. I personally find the concept horrifying.

 

[Dire Bare]

It is, however, a reasonably frequent and predictable act. In their grief and anger, American GIs most certainly did gun down captured SS soldiers during the Battle of the Bulge in retaliation for the SS doing the same to prisoners they captured. American GIs did gun down captured concentration camp guards when they saw the situation and condition of the prisoners. And that's orders of magnitude less than what the Soviets did. These sorts of things do happen no matter what kind of command and control gets exerted over combat, and most of the time it's swept under the rug or compared with the perspective of the situation as a whole. So most of the GIs or Soviets who performed those murders were never held culpable.
Walker's in a somewhat different situation as far as the politics and the optics. What he did was very public and there will obviously be fallout. It is, however, understandable within the context of centuries of human behavior and saying it isn't is really living in denial. So yeah, I have some sympathy for Walker. The situation he's in is extremely complicated and he's in over his head with respect to technology, combat ability, and overall expectations as a national symbol and not all of that is his fault. Yet, somehow, he's got to try to navigate his way though it and bring a bunch of super soldiers to justice. Big surprise he's going to screw up.

You raise excellent points.

I still don't like Walker (as a person, I love the character). He's not a complete a-hole, nor a cartoonish villain, he's a fleshed out, relatable antagonist. You can understand why he does what he does, and sympathize . . . . but he still drove past a-hole town and straight to the Dark Side with the final act of episode 4. Not unlike Morgenthau and the Flag-Smashers.

I think Walker's time as DeCap America is over, not so much due to the ethics of his actions, but rather due to the optics. I doubt he'll be court-martialed or otherwise punished much, save for the demotion. Especially as the US military now has a super-soldier in their employ. Perhaps they'll give him a new super-suit and title, maybe Patriot? U.S. Agent?

Even with his pending demotion, Walker might find himself with cheerleaders from among the American public. We have folks in our society now who would cheer him on with the ultra-violence towards those labeled terrorists.

You mention that this sort of rage-fueled violence isn't anything new, especially with soldiers, and that's true. But this sort of behavior is always considered against the rules of engagement and crimes of war. It is not okay, whether it's DeCap America John Walker or real American soldiers in the Middle East. Sometimes real soldiers get punished for this sort of behavior, sometimes its swept under the rug. Often depends on how visible the behavior was to Americans back home.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I think Walker's time as DeCap America is over, not so much due to the ethics of his actions, but rather due to the optics. I doubt he'll be court-martialed or otherwise punished much, save for the demotion. Especially as the US military now has a super-soldier in their employ. Perhaps they'll give him a new super-suit and title, maybe Patriot? U.S. Agent?

Not Patriot. That is the name used in the comic books by Isaiah's grandson, after he gets a blood transfusion from his grandfather and becomes superpowered, and then joins the Young Avengers. And the Young Avengers is something a lot of people are guessing is being set up for either Disney+ or as a series of movies. Several of the members have been introduced or teased in future shows so far.

As for Walker, we know in the real world that people can black out from fear or anger/rage or from drinking to much, and do things they have no idea they are doing. Maybe he was in a blackout rage and won't get the full punishment the world will think he deserves. It can be the difference between 1st degree murder and 3rd degree manslaughter. This show was filmed many months ago, but we have that high profile murder trial going on right now, with similarities. Sort of eerie that we are getting the show and the trial at the same time.