Falcon and winter solider

[Eric V]

It's a bad thing when supposedly competent characters act like idiots. Walker getting distracted is in character, but Sam, Bucky and Ayo should all have known better than to let Zemo out of their sight for an instant.

YES.

That whole scene was so very dumb.

 

[Eric V]

I liked that humanization of the character. I don't approve of his actions, but I can understand his motivation. Poor Lemar.

Yeah, how come no one is being more understanding of Walker when it's obvious he's grieving...?

 

[Eric V]

Zemo is right, at least about the Super Soldier Serum: only one person in all the people who have taken it have concluded with good results. So very many people are trying to get it, take it, make more...there really, really shouldn't be super soldiers. And I don't think he's wrong about the desire to be super having some serious issues as well...maybe as soon as you yourself want to be super, you should be disqualified from getting the serum? Rogers, notably, wanted to serve...it's just that the serum was the only way he was allowed.

Karli seemed to be going that way...then (out of the blue it seems) she blows up people and threatens Sam's family...ugh. Got to make sure it's unambiguously right to punch her in the face. :/ Personally, not a fan of the writing. Oh, well.

 

[Tonguez]

I think the issue is that they've been trying to make a real-world point out of what is, essentially, a narrative device - the idea of the proliferation of superpowered heroes leading to a similar proliferation of overpowered threats, with the stakes rising to the point where the collateral damage to non-powered bystanders is tremendous. In comics this seems to get brought up a lot with Batman - the idea that his masked-vigilante approach is somehow responsible for the amount of weird and twisted villains in Gotham.

The thing is that this isn't actually a result of any in-universe imperative. It's purely the result of narrative imperatives - the need for writers to keep audiences interested by raising the stakes for each subsequent movie or comic story, which inevitably escalates the conflicts and casualties involved.

When the writers - whether in comics, movies or TV series - try to treat this as a real, in-universe matter of cause and effect, it always falls flat because it's always a very obvious attempt to paper over the narrative cracks.

No Zemos argument isnt the Batman vigilantism leads to a spiral of crazy villains its that Superpowered Heroes are themselves a threat to society -even without enemies it is The Avengers who are the threat (which Hulk, Ironman, Scarlet Witch and now DeCap America all confirm is true)

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Yeah, how come no one is being more understanding of Walker when it's obvious he's grieving...?

. . . Are you serious? I mean, this has got to be a joke, right?

Grief does not excuse murder. Nothing excuses murder. Nothing. It doesn't matter if his best friend died. Steve thought Bucky died in the First Avenger, but he didn't go on a murder spree.

So, um, no. We're not going to cut Walker any slack because his friend died. That doesn't make up for his crime. (Why do people keep playing the Devil's Advocate for Walker? It's obvious he's a bad guy. You're not supposed to like him or want to defend him. He's a jerkass, supremacist, control freak, and not meant to be redeemable.)

 

[Eric V]

About Walker, though...

I would love to hear from people who never read about Walker in the comics. I am NOT one of those people, and have been actively trying to only watch the character in front of me on TV without the rest influencing things, but it's tough. Having said that...

His country asked him to be the new Cap. Is there a higher honour? Even if he himself legit wondered if he is good enough, he has the people in charge saying "YOU are our choice!" So, he serves. And it means a lot to him. It's also a HUGE burden to live up to, and the pressure would be enormous, it seems to me. Fortunately, he has his BFF alongside him to help.

Then, he has the opportunity to work with the 2 people who were the closest to the original Cap, and they make their distaste for him clear...even before he has a chance to really do anything to justify it. Imagine being Walker there, trying to impress the best friends of the legend you are trying to live up to, and them just not having it, and not really giving you a chance.

Then imagine getting your ass kicked all the time (losing more in the first episodes than Rogers ever did?). Then, the one person in the field who believed in you as Cap is murdered.

Anyway, I am really just curious about the POV from those who didn't read those comics back in the day.

 

[Eric V]

. . . Are you serious? I mean, this has got to be a joke, right?

Grief does not excuse murder. Nothing excuses murder. Nothing. It doesn't matter if his best friend died. Steve thought Bucky died in the First Avenger, but he didn't go on a murder spree.

So, um, no. We're not going to cut Walker any slack because his friend died. That doesn't make up for his crime. (Why do people keep playing the Devil's Advocate for Walker? It's obvious he's a bad guy. You're not supposed to like him or want to defend him. He's a jerkass, supremacist, control freak, and not meant to be redeemable.)

It is a joke. It's what people were saying about Wanda at the end of her series.

 

[MarkB]

About Walker, though...

I would love to hear from people who never read about Walker in the comics.

I've never followed the Captain America comics, and I stopped reading Marvel comics before Walker showed up.

I am NOT one of those people, and have been actively trying to only watch the character in front of me on TV without the rest influencing things, but it's tough. Having said that...

His country asked him to be the new Cap. Is there a higher honour? Even if he himself legit wondered if he is good enough, he has the people in charge saying "YOU are our choice!" So, he serves. And it means a lot to him. It's also a HUGE burden to live up to, and the pressure would be enormous, it seems to me. Fortunately, he has his BFF alongside him to help.

Then, he has the opportunity to work with the 2 people who were the closest to the original Cap, and they make their distaste for him clear...even before he has a chance to really do anything to justify it.

He followed Sam and Bucky clandestinely, using Sam's own tech behind his back, and butted in on their operation. That isn't having the opportunity to work with someone - it's taking the opportunity to use them for his own benefit. And that is more than sufficient to justify their distaste for him.

 

[Tonguez]

About Walker, though...

I would love to hear from people who never read about Walker in the comics. I am NOT one of those people, and have been actively trying to only watch the character in front of me on TV without the rest influencing things, but it's tough. Having said that...

His country asked him to be the new Cap. Is there a higher honour? Even if he himself legit wondered if he is good enough, he has the people in charge saying "YOU are our choice!" So, he serves. And it means a lot to him. It's also a HUGE burden to live up to, and the pressure would be enormous, it seems to me. Fortunately, he has his BFF alongside him to help.

Then, he has the opportunity to work with the 2 people who were the closest to the original Cap, and they make their distaste for him clear...even before he has a chance to really do anything to justify it. Imagine being Walker there, trying to impress the best friends of the legend you are trying to live up to, and them just not having it, and not really giving you a chance.

Then imagine getting your ass kicked all the time (losing more in the first episodes than Rogers ever did?). Then, the one person in the field who believed in you as Cap is murdered.

Anyway, I am really just curious about the POV from those who didn't read those comics back in the day.

I’m one of those, I never read the Captain America comics, didnt like the character and my first exposure to Cap was him being beaten up by Black Panther when he tried to enter Wakanda uninvited.

So coming in with just the MCU and cartoon knowledge and a cynical view of US military, to me initially John Walker seemed like a okay guy, obviously not Steve Rogers level of Good Giy, but a proven soldier who served his nation well and who was trying to make friends and do a good job.
I can see how Sams dismissive attitude to Walker has fed in to Walkers feelings of inadequacy and lead to anger and a drive to prove himself inspite of Sam and Bucky not considering him an equal. We do see some one-upmaniship from Walker (like tracking Red Wing and imposing themselves) and we see Walker being rough with civilians (again something anecdotally associated with US military irl) but Sam’s attitude does have some of the blame for bringing out the A-hole in Walker.

As to his downfall, even if I think using Ayo to do it was a dumb writing decision, I can understand how being beaten up by the Dora Malaje and ‘their pointy sticks’ would drive an accomplished American Hero to take the serum when he got the chance (its the drive for American Exceptionalism) and I can see how the death of his partner/friend would push him into a murderous rage

while others are saying outright that he’s a murderer, in one of my younger more cynical personas I’d probably say “No, he’s just being an American”*
(I’ve matured since then and am a bit more sophisticated in my real world cynicism)

 

[Umbran]

Most of your post doesn’t even engage with the same ideas and conflicts that I referred to. It read, to me, like you meant to reply to someone else. What does it have to do with anything I said?

By the way - when you use the "laugh" emoji on posts you disagree with, it comes across as mocking. That is not the intent of having the emoji available. Please don't do that.